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Old 01-15-2019, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Japan
15,292 posts, read 7,719,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
Good question. Logically, it should not. But racism is not driven by logic and, these days, it is not generally as overt as it was in the 19th century. The dangers posed by Watson's claims are mostly of a social nature. Even when laws promote equality, this technical equality rarely translates very well into actual equality for minorities. Implicit biases, racist attitudes, etc., have an overwhelming impact on the day-to-day realities of life for minorities. Equality under the law is foundational and absolutely essential, but it is not sufficient for avoiding grossly unfair treatment. Watson's claims will probably never have any impact on "equal rights" in an overt legal sense, but they can play a role in sustaining implicit biases and racism.

From what I can tell, Watson's claims are not very well supported by the preponderance of actual scientific data (notice that on in this thread, so far, no one has even attempted to post credible evidence supporting Watson's view) but, nevertheless, people who want to sustain white privilege will use Watson's reputation as a Nobel Prize winner to justify their raciest views. We can clearly see, in this thread, that a lot of people are happy to simply assume that the scientific data supports whatever political position they want it to support, so long as they can point to one scientist who supports their view. This is the role plays by Watson in this thread.
Watson's claims can only be considered dangerous if you believe that the ideal of fair treatment for all individuals depends on the propped-up myth of inherent equality among human groups. I would suggest you find a new reason to treat people fairly, since that myth is in for hard times in this age of cheap genomic sequencing.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:39 AM
 
Location: deafened by howls of 'racism!!!'
52,359 posts, read 34,099,496 times
Reputation: 29071
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
Science hasn't positively identified genes that are responsible for variances in human intelligence (at least as far as I'm aware), but the going belief is that it's partially environmental and partially genetic based on various studies.
Large study uncovers genes linked to intelligence

Quote:
Despite intelligence having substantial heritability2 (0.54) and a confirmed polygenic nature, initial genetic studies were mostly underpowered3,4,5. Here we report a meta-analysis for intelligence of 78,308 individuals. We identify 336 associated SNPs (METAL P < 5 × 10−8) in 18 genomic loci, of which 15 are new. Around half of the SNPs are located inside a gene, implicating 22 genes, of which 11 are new findings. Gene-based analyses identified an additional 30 genes (MAGMA P < 2.73 × 10−6), of which all but one had not been implicated previously.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3869
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
6,446 posts, read 4,024,284 times
Reputation: 4490
The IQ debate is still that, a debate. For example their is a general consensus that Mongolia and North Korea have higher IQ than America, yet when you look at the study these numbers come from a study were the IQ or many countries were completely fabricated. Because even today their isn’t enough resources to accurately get the IQ of a proper sample of people. Like I heard how they got the South African or Nigerian IQ or North Korean IQ, for the latter one they literally made it up and now you here people saying things like North Korea and South Koreans are equal IQ wise, when their is nowhere enough North Koreans even IQ tester to come up with that assertion. Not to mention the same was done with much of Africa. Theirs is actually a YouTube video we’re someone goes to South Africa tests college students and then says something along the lines of “College students are 1 standard deviation above regular people in the west” so the IQ of modern South Africans must be 70 (The person never tested an IQ average of 70, but 85 instead among black students) The assumption that college students are even above average in Africa is troubling as corruption means that the best students don’t go to college not to mention African colleges aren’t that highly rated in the first place.

Not to mention besides most poor countries numbers being completely off when you look at U.S immigration which outside of Mexico/Central America is pretty much universal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...usehold_income

You come up with interesting discrepancies like- 34 other groups among more money per capital than the Japanese. Taiwanese Americans and Filipino Americans besides way more Filipinos being here as a percent of their population and the 20 point IQ gap between Filipinos and Taiwanese. The fact that every African group that is unrelated to refugees is middle of the pack at worst. The fact that their is a stronger correlation in the relative meritocracy of America among refugee status than race.

Not to mention Indians universally considered intellectual people in Britain, Africa, North America completely blow the Chinese out of the water here in terms of income and supposedly has an IQ of 110 in America (including Children) yet the country of India has an IQ of 82.
Not to mention the incredibly strong links of IQ and perception- look at the “Portuguese IQ or Irish IQ” until the modern Era. Imagine if IQ test had Brennan made worldwide in the 1960s. I imagine we would be arguing about why the Korean, Chinese IQ are so low when these are developed countries today. I imagine in 30 years when Chile is fully a developed country and India is like China today we will be seeing the Indian IQ jumping 20 points. As long as IQ can literally change by 20 points like it did in the Irish or the official IQ for Nigeria can go from 84 (because they averaged 7 IQ tests given to school children ranging from something like 97.7-67.7 and got an 84) then with no new IQ tests in Nigeria suddenly decided the IQ of Nigeria was a 67???? Hmmm. I think the science is a little bit more than flawed. Especially when these Scientists are Western scientists funded by Alt-Right mostly today, the only way I could believe the numbers for non-western countries is if the government let’s say to identify elite pupils gave school wide IQ tests and released data, the numbers fluctuate to much to be taken at face value.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3834612/
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,429 posts, read 2,719,917 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
Watson's claims can only be considered dangerous if you believe that the ideal of fair treatment for all individuals depends on the propped-up myth of inherent equality among human groups. I would suggest you find a new reason to treat people fairly, since that myth is in for hard times in this age of cheap genomic sequencing.
I certainly do not believe in "inherent equality" if it refers to biology/genetics, and I'm sure you won't find a single person in this thread who defends the idea of inherent biological equality. I'm not sure why you would suggest that anyone would believe in such a thing but, in any case, it is an absurdly flimsy strawman. (BTW: On a side note, pay close attention to the difference between "equality" and "equity".)

The idea that all people are "created equal" and have inalienable rights refers to a spiritual/moral/political goal of basic fairness - e.g., equality under the law and upholding the ideal of minimizing socially damaging irrational prejudice. Again: it is the effort to minimize irrational prejudice and destructive implicit biases that is endangered by Watson's remarks. (Specifically: He is making socially inflammatory claims with, so far as I can see, very little science to back him up.)

Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 01-15-2019 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:45 AM
 
Location: East of the Burgh.
2,828 posts, read 818,888 times
Reputation: 961
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Why does he “take no pleasure” in the differences? Why does he “wish they didn’t exist?” That’s pretty stupid to me.

We are what we are. If my IQ is lower on average than a white man’s, so what? If the white man is a normal human being characterized by love and empathy for his fellow man, why should it matter? Answer: it shouldn’t.

But it DOES matter if the man with this superior intellect and high IQ has evil intentions and wants nothing more than to subjugate people that he sees as less intelligent, and therefore less deserving of the human dignity that he reserves for himself.

That wouldn’t be the REAL issue now....would it OP? Just asking.

We aren’t all the same individually, ethnically or racially. The overwhelming majority of people are fine with that notion. However OP...I’m really not interested in your “solutions” to make things better. Keep ‘em to yourself. I’ve got a better solution...you stay outta my way and I’ll stay outta yours.

We don’t have to like each other in this country. We just have to coexist...peaceably. You can be smarter than me and I’ll be dumber than you. That’s a deal I’ll make so long as you stay in your place and don’t get cute with any of your damn “solutions.”
I do believe there are intrinsic differences, but there are exceptions to every rule. If you are a reasonably intelligent person regardless of race and doing well in life, then that's a good thing, but there are some that are too dumb to know they're dumb and are just smart enough to get themselves in trouble and that is where the problem lies.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:59 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,792 posts, read 2,777,870 times
Reputation: 4915
Default Taking a longer view

Quote:
Originally Posted by cttransplant85 View Post
There’s no way to fix the mean IQ differences; Asians are always going to be smarter than whites and whites are always going to be smarter than blacks on average. Of course that’s not to say that there aren’t some blacks who are smarter than some whites and asians there are plenty but the average is impossible to fix. IQ is highly hereditary no amount of schooling can fix someone’s IQ, it can give it a little boost during schooling but later in life after your done with school it will regress back to the mean. 2 high IQ black people will likely have a smart child and 2 low IQ white people will likely have a low IQ child. All hereditary, very little environmental impacts.
China was an empire while the West was still gestating. Islam was an empire while the West was just learning how to toddle. If you look @ the populations of the colonial & then early US, the large cities there were basically big towns - Latin American (Spanish & Portuguese Empires) cities were comparable to European cities in size & amenities, early on.


China has risen & fallen & is now apparently rising. Rome rose & fell, the Spanish Empire rose & fell, Islam had its day & is still struggling to reconcile their history with their present circumstances. I don't think the development of cultures nor nations nor empires nor peoples is engraved in stone. Which is probably just as well. Someone has to carry the torch forward.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:43 AM
 
57,022 posts, read 35,063,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pgh guy View Post
I do believe there are intrinsic differences, but there are exceptions to every rule. If you are a reasonably intelligent person regardless of race and doing well in life, then that's a good thing, but there are some that are too dumb to know they're dumb and are just smart enough to get themselves in trouble and that is where the problem lies.
I’m not so sure that you can base too much on “the exceptions.” Being an exception implies something being in pretty short supply.

That said, I’m not gonna bother with this whole IQ thing too much. It is what it is. I’m black and I have no issue with having on average lower intelligence than whites or Asians. So what? People just like me have lived with this fact long before I ever had to. If whites can live with the fact that Asians are smarter on average than they are, I can live with the fact that whites are smarter than I am on average. I’m not gonna constantly bother myself with it nor am I gonna kill myself over it. I acknowledge it, then I move on.

I can still live a good life, make a valuable contribution to society, and be competitive with anyone as far as I’m concerned. I’m not a rat race guy, but I went to college with several whites and Asians that were much smarter than me, and I’m doing about as well as most of them with few exceptions. I’m not a high achiever nor am I at the bottom of the totem pole. I’m quite happy with my life station as it is and wouldn’t have it any other way. If my IQ were much higher, I’d be the exact same person with the exact same station in life...I’d just have a little more knowledge and maybe a few more bucks at the most.

All that said, I don’t know where folks wanna go with this IQ argument, but I have a good idea. But as long as they don’t try to use it to disenfranchise me, disrespect me or try to change the present societal arrangements, they can argue about it all they want.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:44 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,603,180 times
Reputation: 14048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berteau View Post
If he would have said the IQ of white men is lower than everyone else he would have been applauded and received a extra nobel prize.
Well, here is the current order......

Hong Kong
Japan
China
European Jews
White People......
and so on.....

Of course, we could add sub-categories like Taiwanese, etc.....

Would you like a giant Foam Finger with "We're #5".....I mean, there aren't too many modern ethnicities, so #5 is further down the list. Moreover, it makes sense that the IQ of many "Real Americans" in Appalachia, etc. is quite low. How many innovations have come from WV and Eastern KY? Compare that with Denmark (about the same pop.) and you'd see a vast difference.


In Ireland, at one time, "Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants. " - same EXACT peoples and "race" and even ethnicity.

"According to one commonly cited study, 85% of all human genetic variation is intra-population,"


Translation - we make people dumb by poverty, misery, inequality and other treatment. 85% of the "inferior" genetics are in the same group.

Translation #2 - Watson is/was wrong. I understand that the thinking was different "back when", but as someone who helped with decoding DNA structure, he - of all people - should know that Science marches on.

In the field of science there is a say that "no one over 60 every accomplished anything". In reality, the real number is much lower than that. Einstein accomplished almost nothing after 30 and that's a general tendency...

Why would anyone be surprised that an ancient Watson watched Fox or listened to Hate Radio or read stupid theories and believed them? Sadly, that is something that older people are more affected by. No matter how much we talk, we cannot dispute the fact of cognitive decline.....evident in Mr. Watson.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:02 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,659,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
James Watson is one of the world's most distinguished living scientists. The co-discoverer of the DNA double helix, he has been a Nobel laureate for the past 57 years. But establishment media only wishes he would keep his mouth shut and die already.

Understand problems clearly, describe them truthfully, think about how to make them better.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/s...gtype=Homepage

2019: Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in ..., by Steve Sailer - The Unz Review

Lets say that such was true. What would be the practical application of such knowledge? Your favorite model minority, Asians, have higher IQ's than whites, I think I have read. Yet, the standard of living of the average white person in this world is multiple times higher than the standard of living for the average Asian person. Should not the smarter people be on top....if IQ....was really the determining factor?
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:15 AM
 
26,300 posts, read 14,897,823 times
Reputation: 14476
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
In Ireland, at one time, "Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants. " - same EXACT peoples and "race" and even ethnicity.
You aren't comprehending something.

I would be interested in a credible link, but they weren't the same people. The protestants in Ireland were overwhelmingly of Scotish and English ancestry. Also wasn't that test done a century ago with more flawed testing than today and in the middle of a massive political dispute between each side?


Do you agree to the following points?

1, scientists have found genes connected to structures in the brain, those structures impact brain performance.

2, intelligence is in part genetic, with the current trend being that it is mostly genetic for adults.

3, however, other things influence intelligence too, like culture, proper diet, not being exposed to violence at a young age, etc... this is why you can't perfectly compare one groups intelligence to another group as they have different cultures, etc...

4, all races/countries have smart people and not so smart people. The US isn't even in the top 10 for MENSA members per capita, yet we have a lot of brain power.
Those are tiny European countries at the top of that list.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...ses-per-capita
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