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Status:
"“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”"
(set 2 days ago)
Location: Great Britain
27,175 posts, read 13,461,836 times
Reputation: 19472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby06
Travis T
Let me ask you a few questions, and I hope to get an honest answer.
1.) If a person burns down a building with someone in it. Who do you blame the gasoline and matches or the person who committed arson?
2.) If a person drives a Mustang GT drunk and smashes into another car. Who do you blame the Mustang GT, FORD, or the person who drove drunk in the first place?
3.) If a person goes into a school and kills a bunch of innocent children using a Smith & Wesson M&P15, as the Parkland shooter did. Who do you blame the AR15, Smith & Wesson, or the person who did the shooting in the first place?
If the answers to the first two questions are you to blame the person, how can you answer be anything other than the person who did the killing in the 3rd question.
Instead of trying to ban an item or any kind of rifle, why no go after the criminal miss use of the objects in the first place. Go after the person committing the crime, and not whatever was used to commit the crime in the first place.
So if you give a mentally ill person who is hearing voices a knife and then they stab you to death. Is that the mentall ill persons fault.
There is even a plea of diminshed responsibility in criminal cases.
Giving high powered weapons to everyone regardless of such issues is not really a sensible policy.
It's more sensible to at least carry out some checks and to limit more powerful weapons that are used in massacres.
You know, technically, I would think "they" would welcome the carbine and not the full size rifle.
Why?
The carbine, by the nature of its shorter barrel, is shorter range........and wouldn't "you" want the other side to have less range to reach and touch you?
Oh come on now. You're making sense from the standpoint of a true shooter with actual experience. That dog doesn't hunt with hoplophobes. Dontcha know that just by the virtue of a criminal using a certain weapon said weapon gives them supernatural ability. LOL. Yea.
Personally if I were being shot at by some gang thug armed with some short barreled version of the AK or some such critter I certainly would prefer to be returning aimed fire with my 20 inch AR or even my Rem 700 30 06. Preferably from cover at distance and rested. Like 2-300+ yards distance. Again I reiterate that the purpose of shooting is hitting. Not just launching random projectiles.
Curiously Whitman also bought and brought along the weapon described as 'the CARBINE" in the original post.
Yes. He had an M1 carbine and a 357 revolver. He didn't use the M1 but if memory serves he used the revolver when he gained entrance to the bell tower. He did his dirty deed with the Remington. As odd as it may sound we should be thankful that these recent mass shootings have not been committed by experienced shooters who are marksmen.
So if you give a mentally ill person who is hearing voices a knife and then they stab you to death. Is that the mentall ill persons fault.
There is even a plea of diminshed responsibility in criminal cases.
Giving high powered weapons to everyone regardless of such issues is not really a sensible policy.
It's more sensible to at least carry out some checks and to limit more powerful weapons that are used in massacres.
Which is what most sensible countries have done.
Thing is all things being equal, a carbine version of a rifle generates less muzzle velocity, and lower accuracy than it's non-carbine rifle equivalent.
Its the big issue the US has moving to the M4 from the M16, the M4 is fundamentally an M16 with a 14.5" barrel, the M16 having a 20" barrel. The M855 NATO round was designed to penetrate a 0.135 inch thick steel plate, and US issue Steel helmet at 500 yards, from the M16. Unfortunately this is inadequate from the M4 (hence the 5.56mm NATO controversy).
So in context of the thread, banning carbines is banning less powerful firearms than banning full sized equivalents.
I'll also point out that most "massacres" happen using handguns not rifles, statistically speaking.
Oh come on now. You're making sense from the standpoint of a true shooter with actual experience. That dog doesn't hunt with hoplophobes. Dontcha know that just by the virtue of a criminal using a certain weapon said weapon gives them supernatural ability. LOL. Yea.
Personally if I were being shot at by some gang thug armed with some short barreled version of the AK or some such critter I certainly would prefer to be returning aimed fire with my 20 inch AR or even my Rem 700 30 06. Preferably from cover at distance and rested. Like 2-300+ yards distance. Again I reiterate that the purpose of shooting is hitting. Not just launching random projectiles.
Well, that's my AR carbines, 16 inch for 3-400 yard ranges.
Sure, the 20 inch barrel would be nice to reach out further........but I go with what works for me....hit him and knock him down.
Status:
"“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”"
(set 2 days ago)
Location: Great Britain
27,175 posts, read 13,461,836 times
Reputation: 19472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir
Thing is all things being equal, a carbine version of a rifle generates less muzzle velocity, and lower accuracy than it's non-carbine rifle equivalent.
Its the big issue the US has moving to the M4 from the M16, the M4 is fundamentally an M16 with a 14.5" barrel, the M16 having a 20" barrel. The M855 NATO round was designed to penetrate a 0.135 inch thick steel plate, and US issue Steel helmet at 500 yards, from the M16. Unfortunately this is inadequate from the M4 (hence the 5.56mm NATO controversy).
So in context of the thread, banning carbines is banning less powerful firearms than banning full sized equivalents.
I'll also point out that most "massacres" happen using handguns not rifles, statistically speaking.
As I pointed out previously an M1 Carbine (Underwood) was among the weapons used in the Hungerford Massacre after which the UK Government brought in regulations restricting most semi-automatic weapons to .22 rimfire.
You can still buy AR-15's in he UK but they will be .22 LR. Whilst for more powerful rifles used in relation to deer stalking and culling in the UK, you have to have a special license beyond that of a standard shotgun or firearms licence.
In terms of handguns, they can indeed be used in massacres, indeed the UK banned them after the Dunblane Massacre, however in the US armed school security also have handguns (as do some teachers) and they should be able to respond more effectively than in the UK.
Last edited by Brave New World; 01-17-2019 at 07:33 AM..
Well, that's my AR carbines, 16 inch for 3-400 yard ranges.
Sure, the 20 inch barrel would be nice to reach out further........but I go with what works for me....hit him and knock him down.
Operative term being "hit him." And if what works for you accomplishes that it's all good. My AR 16 inch is quite capable at the ranges you specify as well especially with bullets in the heavier range. 62-75 grain. And as you say the carbine length is quite handy. Mine has a fixed butt stock rather than the ubiquitous telescoping one.
In the context of the OP that gives all "carbines" of all classes "assault weapon" status that is just plumb silly. Plus he is merely using rate of fire capability as his standard. I'm far more frightened of an active shooter with a Winchester mod 70 in an elevated position than I am of one firing from the hip on the ground with an AR.
So if you give a mentally ill person who is hearing voices a knife and then they stab you to death. Is that the mentall ill persons fault.
There is even a plea of diminshed responsibility in criminal cases.
Giving high powered weapons to everyone regardless of such issues is not really a sensible policy.
It's more sensible to at least carry out some checks and to limit more powerful weapons that are used in massacres.
Which is what most sensible countries have done.
I'd suggest you stick to solving the crime problem within your own country instead of butting into ours. We are not Great Britain, we fought and won a revolution because of your system of governing. That's just one of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment was incorporated into our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
It's already illegal for mentally ill people to possess firearms in the United States. Anyone who knowingly gives or sells a firearm to a mentally ill person or a prohibited possessor as described by federal law is guilty of a crime as well. In fact it is felony under federal law that carries a prison sentence of 5-10 years and a fine of up to $250,000. Not to mention civil penalties if that firearm is later on used in a crime.
Maybe a more sensible policy would be to deal with those who are mentally ill and those who have a propensity for violence. Instead of blaming their actions on those who use firearms for any lawful purpose. Guns are inanimate objects, they don't have supernatural powers that turn good people into bad people. Turning good people into criminals because of what they once lawfully owned will not solve anything. Good people don't need laws and bad people will never follow them. Laws have never deterred anyone who intends to break them. They only serve as a method to punish those who break them after a crime has been committed. They certainly have no affect on those who are on a suicide mission to kill as many people as possible and not come out of it alive.
You can ban any particular type of gun all you want but that will do nothing to change those who are criminally insane from carrying out acts of violence. As there are God only knows how many other methods and objects at their disposal with which to carry out their acts. Something as simple as what was a dollars worth of gasoline at the time, a container and a match was used in the Happyland fire in 1990 which killed 87 people. Compared to the MGM shooting which killed 58 in which a semi automatic rifle was used.
Quote:
Violent crime: Is it getting worse? - BBC News www.bbc.com/news/uk-44397532
Jun 7, 2018 ... Parts of the media have declared that violent crime has turned the country into " Wild West Britain" and one paper asks: "Have we lost control of ...
Crime statistics: Violent crime and sex offences rising, police... www.bbc.com/news/uk-42815768
Jan 25, 2018 ... The number of violent crimes and sex offences recorded by police in England and Wales has risen sharply over the past year, figures suggest.
Surge in knife and gun crime in England and Wales | UK news | The... http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ise-in-violent
Apr 26, 2018 ... Violent crime in England and Wales is rising at an accelerating pace, ... a spate of violent crimes and the impact of cuts in police numbers.
Warnings of 'public health emergency' as violent crime surges | ... http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...land-and-wales
Jul 19, 2018 ... Police have recorded another surge in violent offences including murder, manslaughter and stabbings as the number of police officers and ...
Knife crime hits record high in England and Wales as violence... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8589626.html
Oct 18, 2018 ... Knife crime has hit a new record in England and Wales as the latest statistics show violence continuing to soar and the number of cases solved ...
The M16 did not replace the M1 carbine. The M1 was created as an in between the M1 garand and the 1911 medics or other personnel who could not or did not need to have a full battle rifle. You whole post shows a lack of understanding of history.
Status:
"“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”"
(set 2 days ago)
Location: Great Britain
27,175 posts, read 13,461,836 times
Reputation: 19472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker
I'd suggest you stick to solving the crime problem within your own country instead of butting into ours. We are not Great Britain, we fought and won a revolution because of your system of governing. That's just one of the reasons why the 2nd Amendment was incorporated into our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
I have never suggested that the US do anything, I merely responded to posts regarding the M1 Carbine, which is what this thread is about.
The M1 Carbine was used at Hungerford, which I pointed out and I also pointed out the British Government response.
I barely mentioned the US at all, and I firmly support your right to decide, and fully respect the 2nd Amendement.
As for your violent crime figures, there were 132 murders in London in 2018, and the US has cities with higher murder rates than the entire UK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker
It's already illegal for mentally ill people to possess firearms in the United States. Anyone who knowingly gives or sells a firearm to a mentally ill person or a prohibited possessor as described by federal law is guilty of a crime as well. In fact it is felony under federal law that carries a prison sentence of 5-10 years and a fine of up to $250,000. Not to mention civil penalties if that firearm is later on used in a crime.
In terms of the mentally ill, they carried out a number of attacks in 2018, so the checks sadly don't seem to be working that well.
Not all states participate in Federal Background checks, whilst private sales, one of the main sources for purchasing guns requires no checks at all.
Last edited by Brave New World; 01-17-2019 at 08:26 AM..
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