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Let's make this clear... Nobody here today was born during the time of the Confederate flag... Their entire feelings are learned through indirect feelings and gut reaction to the flag... Other than what they learned historically, they really have no experience... They do not know the people who love the flag nor do they want to try to... One could say the same of the Nazi symbols... The Nazi symbols was appropriated from other cultures and it's a shame that it can't be separated of it's past... The separation of the past and it's symbols shouldn't be that hard... I doubt most people who are upset against the symbols even encounter the symbols in a negative way in their entire life....
Dude, get a clue. The OP is thinking for himself. You just don't like or agree with his views.
I am saying the same thing. The old "you're brainwashed" tactic when you say something someone else doesn't like. The person whom you responded to basically said "most Blacks don't think for themselves" in a covert way. A backhanded ad-hominem when you think about. I said that the photo doesn't represent how the majority of Black Americans feel about the Confederate flag. And it could not be refuted. Instead of refuting what I said, it turns into "well, those minorities in the photo can think for themselves". And Blacks who don't like the Confederate flag aren't thinking for themselves?
I agree with you. Someone didn't agree with my views. And furthermore, what I said could not be proven wrong. I say this. Don't show me some token Black persons expressing love for the Confederate flag. Don't show me the few slaves who identified with their master. Show me something that actually proves me wrong. I said that a majority of Black Americans don't identify with the Confederate flag. I have said that while a most Black Americans have southern roots (and a majority are southerners), most do not claim the Confederate flag as part of their southern heritage. I'm asking some individuals to PROVE ME WRONG. Make me out to be a liar. So far, that hasn't happened. So far, all I'm seeing are some individuals who don't like what I have to say.
Personally, I would prefer someone say "Yeah, most Blacks don't like the Confederate flag. I don't care. I'm flying it anyway". I'd have marginally more respect for that than someone who tries to pull off some tokenism crap.
Let's make this clear... Nobody here today was born during the time of the Confederate flag... Their entire feelings are learned through indirect feelings and gut reaction to the flag... Other than what they learned historically, they really have no experience... They do not know the people who love the flag nor do they want to try to... One could say the same of the Nazi symbols... The Nazi symbols was appropriated from other cultures and it's a shame that it can't be separated of it's past... The separation of the past and it's symbols shouldn't be that hard... I doubt most people who are upset against the symbols even encounter the symbols in a negative way in their entire life....
People are still flying Confederate flags, and there are those who don't like the Confederate flag. Just because people didn't experience those bad things personally, doesn't mean it isn't an issue.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 25 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,588,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
The slave trade was banned in 1807. Not one of those documents you like so well, reinstates it. So what was the expansion all about, really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris
That's kind of an irrelevant strawman argument given that in the context, the institution and practice of slavery wasn't banned in the USA and it took a bloody conflict to eliminate it.
Puhleez. You're not getting anywhere with this.
This can be broken down into two categories, economic and moral.
The Institution of Slavery began over 3000 years ago as a social economic construct, to keep the poor (indebted to government) out of debtors prison. For 3000 years people all over the world who gave credence to the Bible tried to rectify within their hearts and minds why it was, that slavery was God ordained. It is documented in the Bible, the law of the land.
When people rolled up on the shores of America, they brought this inner conflict with them.
When we add in, Brits were kidnapped into slavery, before the era of the Atlantic Slave Trade.
When we add in, the African Lords, kidnapped their citizens and sold them into slavery.
When we add in, that the black freemen had slaves. (how does that happen)
When we add in, that the slave trade had been banned.
When we add in, that none of the official documented records over ruled the ban.
When we add in, that blacks fought on both sides of the conflict.
When we add in, both pro and con arguments in regards (economics of) to the practice of slave labor, held by government of the day ...
What we have as the end result is ... social economic evolution of a society that it took them 3000 years to change. When they thought about moving from one state to another, they wanted to take everything with them and they needed a law (expansion) that allowed them to do that.
What we do not have is equal rights to all citizens of these, u.s., as a result of the conflict 158 years ago. That took another 100 years of evolution to change.
Now when we add in today, that 45% of black Americans do not have neither a positive or negative view of the Southern Cross, what we have, as in all things, it takes time to evolve. Other countries have preceded the u.s. and there are those of us that will get there before others. As always history dictates we will one-day get there, although it may take another 100 years to do.
"While New York City schools are deeply segregated, some black families are choosing an alternative to integration."
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
What's your point? How does it refute anything that I've said?
Not every one agrees with the segregation of schools, that's all. Every one who is pro or con to that argument, they're still around.
PS: sorry, just read where is was you said that the minority was still around ... you're right, they are.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 04-02-2019 at 11:21 AM..
Reason: ps
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 25 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,588,006 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I said the majority has MORE say in this matter. I feel this way because this is abot how the majority of Black Americans feel about the flag, not the minority.
My father's family is from Mississippi. They left the South during the Great Migration. This is why my father is a Wisconsin native.
St. Andrew's flag is a Christian flag. The Confederate flag, on the other hand, has nothing to do with being a Christian. It represents the Confederacy.
There is a reason the points of view you are trying to present are not pertinent to this thread. This is about why the majority of Black Americans, despite most having southern roots, don't identify with the Confederate flag or claim it as part of their southern heritage. This is about the majority opinion, not the minority opinion.
Quote:
They left the South during the Great Migration.
Are you talking about the early 90's. I read about that in the Colorado Springs (we were military once) where companies up north, were looking for the best and the brightest, in recruiting southern black families and entice them to relocate north.
When my husband and I left (1991) the springs, we thought about moving to Michigan, because of an army buddy of his, promised my husband a job. When we arrived in Michigan it was late night and at a gas station a well dressed black man, tapped on my car window where I was sitting inside. I rolled down the window and he asked if I knew where something was (I don't remember) and my southern accent spoke before I did. lol I told him that we too, were new to the area, that he would be better served if he asked the folks inside the station. In seeing him, I thought of the news article I had read and I wondered if he had been recruited, as I also saw his family waiting for him, in their car.
Quote:
St. Andrew's flag is a Christian flag. The Confederate flag, on the other hand, has nothing to do with being a Christian.
We will never agree and I am not alone. St Andrew fought the law of his day and the law won ... he did it, not for legal reason, but gave his life for the 'right' reasons. When I see the Southern Cross, that, is what I see and there isn't anything that will change that for me.
If Christ were alive today, he would still be hung, for the same reasons as before, that much in people has yet to change. Martin Luther King, born Micheal, took the name of a Protestant Martin Luther, he had his reasons for doing so. There isn't a segregated Heaven and we are to live our lives as such. But in all things ... it takes time.
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