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Old 02-11-2019, 08:56 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,624,395 times
Reputation: 14050

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
You can't judge history with today's morals and standards. The South was a lot more than just slavery. Just like our Founding Fathers were a lot more than just slavery, they owned slaves but nobody condemns them like they do the South....why is that?
Actually, the South was NOT a lot more than just slavery. Slavery built the entire Southern Economy and that of much of the world....

"In the pre-Civil War United States, a stronger case can be made that slavery played a critical role in economic development. One crop, slave-grown cotton, provided over half of all US export earnings. By 1840, the South grew 60 percent of the world's cotton and provided some 70 percent of the cotton consumed by the British textile industry"

In a modern industrial society, that's not a rounding error. Add in tobacco and you have vastly more.....imagine if 60-70% of the total exports of a major trading country disappeared?

Historians obviously discuss the Slaves of the Founders. Heck, Jefferson left a lot of DNA in his slaves...I'm sure the others did also. They addressed the question of slavery over and over again. But history moves at a certain speed.

Just as the founders were not able to settle Mars or build smartphones, they were not able to fully solve the problem. They took steps and eliminated the importing, etc. - and then many of them worked to abolish it. They were human beings...but, unlike many here today, they saw clearly what it represented and didn't shrug their shoulders and say "oh, it's just the times".

 
Old 02-11-2019, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,176,784 times
Reputation: 4590
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey-head View Post
I don't care about *any* of that. Why is it that you Southern Traitors can never discuss an issue directly? You always twist and dodge with your Whattaboutisms.
Who were the good guys? The North or the South?

The point I have been trying to make in this thread and elsewhere is this, "NEITHER SIDE WERE THE GOOD GUYS."


When you claim the south are "traitors", and celebrate a scumbag like Sherman, you seem to be taking a side.


The term "treason" refers only to someone who "wages war against his own country". By that definition, it was Abraham Lincoln who committed treason. Not Robert E. Lee.

It was Sherman who committed war-crimes, not Robert E. Lee.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV1d81GZCXM
 
Old 02-11-2019, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Tip of the Sphere. Just the tip.
4,540 posts, read 2,754,656 times
Reputation: 5277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Who were the good guys? The North or the South?

The point I have been trying to make in this thread and elsewhere is this, "NEITHER SIDE WERE THE GOOD GUYS."


When you claim the south are "traitors", and celebrate a scumbag like Sherman, you seem to be taking a side.


The term "treason" refers only to someone who "wages war against his own country". By that definition, it was Abraham Lincoln who committed treason. Not Robert E. Lee.

It was Sherman who committed war-crimes, not Robert E. Lee.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV1d81GZCXM
Don't try and put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming moral purity on either side.

But the fact remains that the South fired the first shots. And they were EXPLICIT in declaring that slavery was a primary cause of their treason.

Don't believe me? Read South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decl..._Federal_Union

Hundreds of thousands of pig-ignorant Southerners died in vain, defending their rich masters' right to enslave human beings. And I'm PROUD of the fact that some of my ancestors killed them for that inhuman stupidity.

The South should've quit while they were ahead. As should you.
 
Old 02-11-2019, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,176,784 times
Reputation: 4590
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
"In the pre-Civil War United States, a stronger case can be made that slavery played a critical role in economic development. One crop, slave-grown cotton, provided over half of all US export earnings. By 1840, the South grew 60 percent of the world's cotton and provided some 70 percent of the cotton consumed by the British textile industry"

In a modern industrial society, that's not a rounding error. Add in tobacco and you have vastly more.....imagine if 60-70% of the total exports of a major trading country disappeared?
This is a valid point which I've tried to make as well.

Not only is this why slavery was tolerated as long as it was(in what many call the "slave-power"), but it is why reconstruction ended so quickly after the Civil war. The slaves merely became share-croppers, all while the Federal government turned a blind-eye.


The United States is going to do whatever is in the National Interests of the United States. Governments do not have morality. And governments cannot act for moral reasons. The Union didn't fight a war to free anyone. It fought a war to preserve its own power.


In the early years of the United States, we had no industry at all. We bought all our manufactured goods from England by trading our commodities to them. If we had nothing to sell them, we wouldn't have been able to buy even the weapons we needed to defend ourselves.

We required something to export to Europe, and that something was mainly cotton(although we also sold tobacco and food).

Without something to export in those early years, there would be no American industry, and there likely wouldn't even be an America at all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notJuFGXQ9w


Only once America's industry was developed, mostly through high tariffs acquired mostly through southern ports, could slavery in whatever form be abolished.


The United States will always do whatever is in its national interests. Lincoln killed 650,000 Americans, and he would have killed many more if that is what it took. He was not going to allow the south to secede. He couldn't, because the north needed the south.

Last edited by Redshadowz; 02-11-2019 at 10:27 AM..
 
Old 02-11-2019, 09:52 AM
 
13,288 posts, read 7,838,215 times
Reputation: 2141
The South comprised Old Testament religion, while the North comprised New Testament religion.

It seems to still be there today.
 
Old 02-11-2019, 10:19 AM
 
8,302 posts, read 2,928,153 times
Reputation: 7845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
I'd beat or kill any ghetto snipe that attacked me, including you

Because you think blacks are savages. Understood.

Why do you think whites act differently than blacks? Genetics?
I believe those that take meds should take them as directed. Always read those labels!
 
Old 02-11-2019, 10:20 AM
 
72,858 posts, read 62,340,278 times
Reputation: 21807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperthetic View Post
The South comprised Old Testament religion, while the North comprised New Testament religion.

It seems to still be there today.
I don't know how true that is. However, I can tell you this. The Baptist church in the USA started in the North. The Southern Baptist Convention started because mainstream Baptists were against slavery.
 
Old 02-11-2019, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,176,784 times
Reputation: 4590
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkey-head View Post
Don't try and put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming moral purity on either side.

But the fact remains that the South fired the first shots. And they were EXPLICIT in declaring that slavery was a primary cause of their treason.
And if Texas had seceded in 2008 they would have claimed it was to protect gun-rights.


The cause of secession, and the cause of the Civil-War, was money. If you read Georgia's reason for secession, they list many other causes for secession than just slavery. And only four out of eleven states even gave their reason for secession.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Georgia Secession

The full text of the South Carolina secession causes is here...

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union


Why did America secede from Britain? The standard claim is that we wanted freedom and democracy. But is that even true? Did the founders actually care about democracy? Why then did they give almost no one a right to vote? And freedom for who exactly?


Why did George Washington march an Army into Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion?


American History is nothing but lies. Why believe any of the words that came out of a politician's mouth? Why did we fight the Iraq War? Why did we fight WWI? Or the Spanish-American War? Or the Mexican-American War? Or any war?


As for Fort Sumter, there is no doubt that the south fired on Fort Sumter, but why did they do it? Did the south want war? Did Abraham Lincoln want war?

Take this letter by Abraham Lincoln to Gustavus Fox...

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln...;view=fulltext


Without wanting to defend the south, Lincoln effectively forced their hand. Fort Sumter was in the middle of Charleston Harbor, hundreds of miles from "the north".


I am with you that ultimately the 1% of the south dragged the southern people into what became the Civil-War by lying to them. Which is what the 1% always do. You don't think the North lied to its people? What of the New York City draft riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots


But keep something in mind. Abraham Lincoln had no intention of abolishing slavery at the outset of the Civil-War. And in fact, had the Civil War ended before 1863, he wouldn't have pushed for the 13th amendment at all.

Lincoln was in favor of the Corwin Amendment, and it was already in the process of being ratified before the Civil War even began. Had the Corwin amendment been adopted, slavery definitely wouldn't have been abolished in 1865.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment


People constantly say that, "America had to fight the Civil War to end slavery. How long should slavery have lasted?"

They don't seem to understand that slavery was abolished in 1865 ONLY because the south seceded. If the south hadn't seceded, slavery only would have ended when it was no longer economically-profitable for the south and they abolished it themselves. Just like with Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Britain, France, and everywhere else in the world.


Or in short, the Civil-War was not fought to end slavery. It was all money and politics. And the reason blacks were given a right to vote with the 15th amendment, was not because the Republicans cared whatsoever about black people, but because they wanted their votes.


Governments cannot act for moral reasons, nor can they even act for immoral reasons. All governments are amoral. They act only for money and power.


We have to separate governments from people. People can be moral, and honorable, and good. And there were plenty of good people on both sides.


As Friedrich Hegel wrote, "Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights."

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/g...drich_h_107164


There is a reason good people defend the confederacy. And there is a reason good people defend the union. The objection people have is the vilification of the people who fought.


We should criticize the US government for the Vietnam War, but we should NEVER take out our anger on the men who fought in that war, or their families. I am not angry at them, I feel sorry for them.

Last edited by Redshadowz; 02-11-2019 at 10:46 AM..
 
Old 02-11-2019, 10:57 AM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 18 hours ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Well, this is the thing. It should not be a surprise that African-Americans don't view the Confederate flag in a positive light. The thing is, trying to make it look like Black people must be crazy for viewing the Confederate flag that way is quite commonplace. Alot of people don't care to ask WHY. You and me know why, but many people don't bother to ask why. Some probably know why but pretend they don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
That we can agree on. How desperate does one have to be in the lengths of defending Confederate types and white supremacists? Or desperate to gaslight in this case? Even further, consider that the subjects of Democrats, Republicans, left wing, and right wing was brought up. This wasn't related to the subject. It was brought up as just another gaslighting tactic. Some individuals would rather deflect from the topic than say how they really feel.
My response ...
 
Old 02-11-2019, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Tip of the Sphere. Just the tip.
4,540 posts, read 2,754,656 times
Reputation: 5277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
And if Texas had seceded in 2008 they would have claimed it was to protect gun-rights.


The cause of secession, and the cause of the Civil-War, was money. If you read Georgia's reason for secession, they list many other causes for secession than just slavery. And only four out of eleven states even gave their reason for secession.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Georgia Secession

The full text of the South Carolina secession causes is here...

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union


Why did America secede from Britain? The standard claim is that we wanted freedom and democracy. But is that even true? Did the founders actually care about democracy? Why then did they give almost no one a right to vote? And freedom for who exactly?


Why did George Washington march an Army into Pennsylvania to put down the Whiskey Rebellion?


American History is nothing but lies. Why believe any of the words that came out of a politician's mouth? Why did we fight the Iraq War? Why did we fight WWI? Or the Spanish-American War? Or the Mexican-American War? Or any war?


As for Fort Sumter, there is no doubt that the south fired on Fort Sumter, but why did they do it? Did the south want war? Did Abraham Lincoln want war?

Take this letter by Abraham Lincoln to Gustavus Fox...

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln...;view=fulltext


Without wanting to defend the south, Lincoln effectively forced their hand. Fort Sumter was in the middle of Charleston Harbor, hundreds of miles from "the north".


I am with you that ultimately the 1% of the south dragged the southern people into what became the Civil-War by lying to them. Which is what the 1% always do. You don't think the North lied to its people? What of the New York City draft riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots


But keep something in mind. Abraham Lincoln had no intention of abolishing slavery at the outset of the Civil-War. And in fact, had the Civil War ended before 1863, he wouldn't have pushed for the 13th amendment at all.

Lincoln was in favor of the Corwin Amendment, and it was already in the process of being ratified before the Civil War even began. Had the Corwin amendment been adopted, slavery definitely wouldn't have been abolished in 1865.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_Amendment


People constantly say that, "America had to fight the Civil War to end slavery. How long should slavery have lasted?"

They don't seem to understand that slavery was abolished in 1865 ONLY because the south seceded. If the south hadn't seceded, slavery only would have ended when it was no longer economically-profitable for the south and they abolished it themselves. Just like with Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Britain, France, and everywhere else in the world.


Or in short, the Civil-War was not fought to end slavery. It was all money and politics. And the reason blacks were given a right to vote with the 15th amendment, was not because the Republicans cared whatsoever about black people, but because they wanted their votes.


Governments cannot act for moral reasons, nor can they even act for immoral reasons. All governments are amoral. They act only for money and power.


We have to separate governments from people. People can be moral, and honorable, and good. And there were plenty of good people on both sides.


As Friedrich Hegel wrote, "Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights."

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/g...drich_h_107164


There is a reason good people defend the confederacy. And there is a reason good people defend the union. The objection people have is the vilification of the people who fought.


We should criticize the US government for the Vietnam War, but we should NEVER take out our anger on the men who fought in that war, or their families. I am not angry at them, I feel sorry for them.
That's an awful lot of weaving and dodging to say that the preservation of slavery wasn't the *only* reason for the War of Southern Treason. And nobody here ever claimed that slavery was the *only* reason, nor has anybody here claimed that the North is/was morally pure

But the preservation of slavery was a major reason if not the *primary* reason for the Southern Treason. They said so right there in their own words!

How many pages are you gonna copy/paste to muddy those waters?
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