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I don't think it comes as a surprise that African Americans do not view the Confederate States of America in a positive light.
I think this is a powerful thread because it illustrates what happened shortly after the American Civil War, & after President Lincoln's assassination. It's how the 'Lost Cause' mythologies came to be foisted upon the United States of America.
Some folks disregard dismiss deny what the CSA stood for before the War & then (blissfully?) glom onto only what was said afterwards. In this sense, the CSA actually won the War, however not on the battlefield. The CSA fought to protect, preserve & expand their 'peculiar' institution & their 'way of life' of white supremacy. This is their heritage. It wasn't about hatred, it was about protecting, preserving & expanding their view that white folks were superior to black folks. It wasn't that black people were different than white people ... they were less than. This is the heritage they wanted everyone to accept. Why was the issue of returning enslaved people to their rightful 'owners' so contentious? The state of VA sued the state of NY over this issue. The CSA could not, or would not, be appeased & so there was War. They still couldn't be appeased after the war, & so went ahead to reinstate the Black Codes, Jim Crow era laws, & resisted the Civil Rights Movement of the 50s, 60s & so on ... . The American Civil War.
It's still being fought.
You're right to refer to the 'gaslighting' & 'crazy making' when it comes to expecting American folks to view the whitewashed history as having much or anything to do with the realities. African Americans, both then & now, are unrealistically expected to view these realities from the 'other' perspective when it was surely not healthy for them to do so back then. Not any more healthy would it be to do so in the present day.
If anything, it is a shock when I do see an African-American viewing the Confederate flag as something positive. I've seen more Black American men play hockey and participate in rodeos(I have watched some rodeos on TV) than express any kind fo positive feelings for the Confederate flag.
This thread shows that the "Lost Cause" myth has never gone away.
An interesting note, Lincoln offered to reimburse the slave owners for buying up the slaves. Southern states refused. We both know that slavery was not only an economic way of life. It was a societal way of life. Destroying slavery meant destroying everything that the South was during the antebellum period. For someone like me, I would be perfectly fine with it. If I had been living back then, that way of life would be at my expense. I would be a slave as the vast majority of Blacks were in the South.
One thing that the Civil War did is set the tone for the next century. Jim Crow was not just some system of laws. It was a way of restoring the Old South way of life. Jim Crow didn't go away without kicking and screaming (and some deadly violence). Jim Crow was also a form of revenge. Not only was there anger towards the North, there was anger towards Blacks.
Gaslighting is nothing new. The whole crazy-making, well, it's not different than dealing with an abuser. If the abuser can't refute the facts, the next course of action is to go after the person. It is not just about "never say sorry", it's "never admit to being wrong". Yes, there were some Black Confederates. How many though? And how many compared to Black Union soldiers? And does it negate that the Confederate cause was heavily about slavery?
So if slavery was a major part of the confederate cause, why didn't they return to the Union in 1861 to vote on the Corwin Amendment and make it into law? ........because it was about taxes and who control the economy in the South. It was about who control the revenues from slavery in the South and the resources and lands in the South............it was all about $$$$$ and control, the real reason all wars are fought.
Cherry pick the history any way you want, but the harsh and obvious reality is that the Confederacy was composed of Slave states, and the Union was composed of Free states.
Slaves were largely African-American. So getting back to the topic of the post, why wouldn't most African-Americans find the Confederate flag offensive?
Not sure I have heard any logical response to this, yet.
your opinion....it's a battle flag in one of the bloodiest wars in our history in which 1 side viewed it as a war of aggression and invasion to their lands.
.
You are correct that it is a battle flag - but for the cause as THEY put it.
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world"
well, they are not going to support the Democrat party that is acceptable to hate white people and trash the Southern culture and look down on them, duh!!!!!! .......is kinda hard to vote for a party that trashes your skin color, trashes your culture and trashes your way of life and treat better illegals than you.....don't you think?
I haven't heard of anyone trashing white skin color, but the rest of it I understand where you are coming from. And that was kind of my point: That waving the confederate flag is mainly an act of defiance against those they consider "elitists" that are disregarding and disrespecting their way of life. And voting for Trump was another act of defiance.
Now, I don't support the confederate flag, because of the racial connotations. But in trying to understand why it is supported by this particular group (working class whites) I conclude that it is not because they are racists but because it is an act of defiance - like giving the finger to those who would tell them what is and is not acceptable behavior. Do you agree?
Cherry pick the history any way you want, but the harsh and obvious reality is that the Confederacy was composed of Slave states, and the Union was composed of Free states.
Slaves were largely African-American. So getting back to the topic of the post, why wouldn't African Americans find the Confederate flag offensive?
Not sure I have heard any logical response to this, yet.
Well, as the State of Texas noted...it's because of Christian Principles.
"is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations"
According to these history rewriters, they should just submit and honor it because their darker skin color means that the Christian Lord made them for backbreaking labor under the sun.
I conclude that it is not because they are racists but because it is an act of defiance - like giving the finger to those who would tell them what is and is not acceptable behavior. Do you agree?
Well, yeah, I think you have it. If you've ever heard of an upperdecker or throwing Ka-Ka at people (some primates do it), you have the right idea.
The larger question here is whether that is civilized behavior that our society accepts.
Well, sure it was about money - from the Slaves. What you need to do is read the words of the Confederates themselves......they seem to disagree with you!
MS.
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."
LA.
"The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."
TX
".in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states...."
"Southern slaveholders believed that African slavery was one of the great organizing institutions in world history, superior to the “free society” of the North"
It's totally fantastic that views like yours exist...and not only that, but that you refuse to take in any new information...no matter how clear (can't get much more clear than declarations by the Political class of the states involved).
Please - stop looking like a fool. Take some time and read stuff other than the rewritten history you are quoting. Please?
Wow. This is all new to me. I surely knew about Holocaust deniers, but I had no idea that there were people that held these kind of bizarre views about the Civil War. You learn something new every day, I guess.
I haven't heard of anyone trashing white skin color, but the rest of it I understand where you are coming from. And that was kind of my point: That waving the confederate flag is mainly an act of defiance against those they consider "elitists" that are disregarding and disrespecting their way of life. And voting for Trump was another act of defiance.
Now, I don't support the confederate flag, because of the racial connotations. But in trying to understand why it is supported by this particular group (working class whites) I conclude that it is not because they are racists but because it is an act of defiance - like giving the finger to those who would tell them what is and is not acceptable behavior. Do you agree?
I don't agree. At least in my neck of the woods, it has a strong association with racism and white supremacy. Probably not true across the board, but in general.
Grew up in the deep south. Been around rebel flags for years. At the time, never really thought of them as representing a desire for slavery/racism.
However, looking at it though my adult eyes, it is quite obvious that those "good ole boys" with the Stars and Bars on their homes, trucks, shirts or hats were (and still are) racists. The local people of color see it that way clearly enough. No reason for the country/states to continue to express a tolerance for the ideals of hate - any more than the Germans tolerate a Nazi party.
Tolerance of such things led to the the current situation in VA where seemingly liberal people have racist actions in their past. I have always known better and so should have they.
Well, sure it was about money - from the Slaves. What you need to do is read the words of the Confederates themselves......they seem to disagree with you!
MS.
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."
LA.
"The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."
TX
".in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states...."
"Southern slaveholders believed that African slavery was one of the great organizing institutions in world history, superior to the “free society” of the North"
It's totally fantastic that views like yours exist...and not only that, but that you refuse to take in any new information...no matter how clear (can't get much more clear than declarations by the Political class of the states involved).
Please - stop looking like a fool. Take some time and read stuff other than the rewritten history you are quoting. Please?
I've been posting stuff from the Articles of Secession. Alot of people just flat out ignore it. I've posted quotes from William Tappan Thompson and Alexander Stephens. That stuff gets ignored alot. One person just posted stuff about how there were Black Confederates. However, does it refute that the Confederate cause was a cause heavily rooted in trying to keep slavery in the South? That is the bottom line people like us care about. So far, nothing has proven that the Confederate cause WASN'T about slavery. The Confederate Constitution has sections dedicated to protecting slavery. Articles of Secession, per your posts, show how instrumental the issue of slavery was. These are leaders, the fathers of the Confederate cause, telling what this was about.
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