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Communism or extreme socialist systems are good only under extreme conditions of adversity such as some major natural disasters or something man made such as war. They can keep a society functioning and hold things together but the system needs to be replaced after the society stabilizes.
Animal Farm, 1984...all this stuff relates to human nature in ANY large group.
Now, if one wants a glance into the possible excesses of US Capitalism, read "The Jungle". That will tell you all you need to know.
Oil and resource heavy countries seem to almost equate perfectly with repressive and corrupt governments. It even could be said that in the USA our system was/is corrupted by the manufactured Right Wing, a product of the Texas and other oil billionaires (John Birch Society, Kochs, Hunts and many more).
When we point out the corruption in Venezuela, they blame it on Socialism.
When we point out the corruption in the USA it gets a pass as seen from this thread.
Hugo Chavez was a dictator. He wrapped himself in a nationalist and socialist flag, but it was always about total control as a strongman.
After the Venezuelan people had been beaten down for decades by their 1%, his message took hold. Maduro is just a second rate version of Chavez.
Trying to compare true Social Democracies to what happened in Venezuela is like comparing an abacus to a modern computer.
^This is a good summary.
I would merely add that that socialism does NOT work. As I noted in another thread, the Danish Prime Minister was clear on this point during the 2016 Presidential campaign:
"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,†Rasmussen said.
“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,†he added.
So stop spreading the excrement around because anyone with any brains whatsoever has realized that the right wing talking point has zero to do with reality. Trump, the lord of the flies and lies and standard bearer of the right is enough proof of how low the party has sunk and their disdain for truth.
A corrupt petrol state à la Russia style is the bottom line of Venezuela's troubles.
So what do you think happens when you give gov't too much power. Power always leads to corruption.
When we point out the corruption in Venezuela, they blame it on Socialism.
When we point out the corruption in the USA it gets a pass as seen from this thread.
She could be right in pointing out the problem and wrong in her offered solution. Her solution clearly would destroy the economy making the situation worse. Giving all power to the state is totally against the founding principals of the US.
It might stop illegal immigration though. Who wants to travel thousands of miles to be greeted by the same kind of s-hol they just left.
She might want to build a wall then. Not to keep people out but to keep them in. Something like the Berlin wall.
You can try to pick nits over the levels of corruption.
Capitalism, with the correct level of regulation, has brought millions out of poverty, and has been key to the advancement of societies.
Communism has never done that.
Once again people equate economic systems with various political ideologies. They are not one and the same. The Saudis brought virtually all their country members "out of poverty"....so did many of the Arab Oil States.
When Venezuela was "capitalist" things were horrible there also. Time marches on - the internet and TV and airline travel have made many people SEE that inequity more clearly and this is where much of the chaos comes in.
Does anyone here really think the bulk of the Oil profits in Venezuela went to "the people" like they do in Alaska (each resident gets a check) BEFORE so-called "Socialism"? The answer is quite simple..... NO. That country is largely owned by all the foreign interests who set up shop in the oil regions.
We could argue that corruption is easier in certain systems or places...but when we had the Great Recession (result of corruption), wars (result of corruption), debt (result of corruption) and so many other situations where most every soul in our country was hurt...it's hard to say our system works. In fact, the entire election of Trump and all this "deep state" and "swamp" stuff is about it NOT working.
You can't on one hand say our system is great and then have 90% of people having a negative view of Congress...it doesn't compute.
BTW, my entire career is as a so-called "capitalist", but I understand that it the word doesn't have much meaning. The dude on the side of the dirt path selling his poultry 3,000 years back was a capitalist.
Government SHOULD BE involved in doing away with some of the excesses of economic systems. That is, if we play Monopoly (a capitalist game) and you win all the properties...that is the END. I don't have another shot.
As has been expressed by many...and what I believe...is the people who play the game honestly and by the REAL rules (rules and laws are two different things) should be able to prosper in the wealthiest country in history. The exact policies that get us there is a deeper subject.
Current capitalism says borrow borrow borrow and then either throw the debt onto someone else or just keep borrowing. After all, you have the vote and future generations do not.
Now, if we were a moral and ethical people (some are, some aren't), then we would take that into consideration...but most don't.
So what do you think happens when you give gov't too much power. Power always leads to corruption.
The government and corporations and wealthy people have power whether YOU give it to them or not.
You will see the EXACT same forces at work in a town of 5,000 souls as you will in a city of 1 million..or even a large nation. I have seen it up close. In fact, I'd say the smaller kingdoms are often worse because they are no real checks.
Nature abhors a vacuum. Smaller government simply means lots of "warlords" then install themselves in the system. Heck, look at the tendency to contract out our defense and wars. Firms like the old Blackwater couldn't be more corrupt...and they are tied directly in with government except that We The People are paying much more and have no civilian control.
On the entire earth there are perhaps 100 million people left still living in a "all are part of the team" original tribal culture. The rest are part and parcel of all the problems that larger and diverse populations and economies produce.
I would merely add that that socialism does NOT work. As I noted in another thread, the Danish Prime Minister was clear on this point during the 2016 Presidential campaign:
"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.
“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.
This is true. The comparisons between Venezuala and say, Denmark is wrong. Even though Chavez and Maduro used the terms "Social Democratic" to self describe, that is incorrect. Venezuala is a communist country.
Communism on any larger scale (say over a few hundred people) has always been destined to fail.
The Scandanavian models, market based economies with heavy taxation and regulations down the scale, have worked to some degree within smaller countries with homogenous populations/cultures. But even those countries are struggling to some degree with these systems now that unfettered immigration has been allowed in recent years.
It wont work well in the USA, no matter what clowns like Bernie/fauxcahontas/AOC believe.
Last edited by snebarekim; 02-10-2019 at 12:36 PM..
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Power always leads to corruption.
