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like this, .....trip to the emergency room, cost is $10,000?, you owe $2000, they only pay 80%. Guess you'll need a supplemental plan to pay for that other 20% too then, pick one up for another $300-$500 a month.. Oh and BTW add millions to the Medicare program, forget those $134 a month premiums for it, they'll more than double/triple for everyone. Medicare for all is a shell game. Wise up people
Only in Murika!
Consider this from a thread in the health insurance section of these boards.:
False equivalency. Medicare is not the VA. Medicare does not own its facilities or employ doctors. Medicare allows private, self-employed doctors and hospitals to provide services for Medicare patients, with reimbursements specified by Medicare, identical to private insurance. The doctor can choose or not choose to accept Medicare patients. Patients supplement Medicare coverage with a Medigap. Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Australia, UK all have similar models for every citizen - not just retirees.
I've heard plenty of VA patients over the years rave about the VA on C-Span - especially for combat related disorders. VA provides a specific service for veterans not easily found among regular health care providers. Yes, over the years, the system has become inadequate to service the needs of veterans as that population increases due to all our wars and our longer life-spans. Further, facilities often are far removed from the rural veteran. But veterans (and others) can choose where to live. People who choose rural away from everything need a contingency plan to cover emergencies.
All this said, the population of the US is at least 330 million, probably higher. Canada, by contrast, has a population of only 36 million - one-tenth the size of the US. California has a greater population than Canada, as an example.
Aside from the huge monied interests of the health insurers, the sheer size of the US size and variance in geographic political views, exacerbated by media scare hype, prevent any common sense discussion on the value of Medicare for all.
And, contrary to the scare tactics employed on higher taxes, Canadians in general pay LESS than the US consumer in taxes and private health insurance costs when costs of insurance/deductibles/copays/balance billing AND regular income taxes are considered. I did this analysis a few years ago - it still applies:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne22
OK, looking at this table
Average household expenditure, by province (Canada)
Canadian family of 4 earning $80K pays:
$14,867 - Taxes (includes health insurance/retirement (i.e. FICA))
$x2,250 - Health Care
$17,117 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
US family of 4 earning $80k w/employer-subsidized insurance pays:
$x6,120 - FICA Taxes (SS - similar to Canadian pension)
$x4,790 - Federal Income Taxes (includes $2k child tax credit)
$x6,000 - Employer subsidized health insurance (low)
$x2,500 - Deductible, miscellaneous cost (low)
$19,410 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
US citizen w/employer insurance pays about $2k a year more - plus still has exposure to balance billing and max-out-of-pocket issues.
For the US family forced to buy privately or on the ACA, their costs would look more like this:
$x6,120 - FICA Taxes
$x4,790 - Federal Income Taxes
$x8,000 - ACA subsidized premium national average
$x6,000 - Deductible (maximum out-of-pocket up to $13,700)
$24,910 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
That is at least a $7,800/year difference for those not covered by an employer. And, the American still has another almost $8k balance billing and max out-of-pocket exposure.
If anything, it's worse as the ACA is phased out.
These days, family premiums of $1,500/mo., imo, are unconscionable not to mention unaffordable. Seniors over 60 before reaching Medicare age commonly pay $1,200/mo. for coverage for ONE person. That alone should motivate anyone with common sense to be in favor of a better solution.
This horse has been beat to death many times on this board. Other good threads:
Cheap ER costs in Germany
How Much Do You Pay Per Month for Your Health Insurance?
Yep. I think too many in the U.S are wanting to run towards single payer without taking the time to examine the issues with it in those countries that have single payer. You will always need private options.
That article is over seven years old. There is no perfect system, but Canada is much, much closer to properly meeting the majority of patient needs without insurance company hassles and exorbitant deductibles, premiums, balance billing and network issues. People should not be facing bankrupting medical bills - denied treatment because they cannot afford America's high premiums. For-profit and health care are oxymorons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pgh guy
I have to admit I do/did have co-pays with Dr. visits and meds, although not that high, I would have preferred no co pay at all. I have just gone on Medicare and had to pick a supplemental insurance to Medicare and it is not nearly as good as the my pre 65 insurance. Premiums have gone up and co-pays have gone up which is bad because right now I am on a fixed income.
Between what you pay Medicare for Part B and your premium for the Medigap supplement, unless you chose a cost-sharing Medigap plan, you should not be experiencing any copay for Medicare-approved services, other than possibly the $183 annual Part B deductible. You will have copays for Part D.
That you mention copays leads me to think you may have joined an Advantage plan, are paying a premium for the Advantage plan, plus have a copay every time you see doc or have a service or fill a prescription. Advantage premium may initially be "lower" - but you get charged every time you use the plan. It can add up, especially for chronic issues. Max out-of-pocket for some plans can be as high as $8k/year, 4x the cost of a Medigap.
Last edited by Ariadne22; 02-23-2019 at 08:43 PM..
America paid roughly twice the rich country median for drugs in 2015, at $1,443 per person, with $1,023 of that in the form of retail pharmaceuticals. France paid $697, while the Netherlands paid just $466. Secondly, fully 8 percent of American health-care spending goes to administration — as compared to Germany at 5 percent, Canada at 3 percent, or Sweden at 2 percent.
Quote:
Thus the first priority for a Medicare-for-all bill must be to cut administration spending to the bone. Given that this is largely down to providers having to navigate the hellishly complex and fragmented status quo system, this should be quite easy. Aiming for Canada's level would be a good goal, since it would be a fairly similar program (and global budgeting can help here). Using 2015 figures for consistency, getting down to 3 percent saves about $160 billion (5 percent of $3.2 trillion) a year.
Quote:
Smashing down drug prices would be harder politically, but conceptually simple. As Japan's medical price regulator does, you simply survey the drug market and set prices given an overall budget of (let's say) $725 per person. That's still on the high side among rich countries, allowing for higher prices for drugs requiring expensive development and production, but with the main objective of halting rampant, merciless price-gouging. Given that 84 percent of U.S. drug consumption is generics, this should almost exclusively hurt Big Pharma companies charging rip-off prices — as they charge Americans more than twice the U.K. price for arthritis medication Humira, more than three times the U.K. price for cholesterol medication Crestor, more than three times the German price for diabetes medication Lantus, and more than four times the French price for asthma treatment Advair. The Medicare price-setting board should also have the power to force recalcitrant pharma companies to license their patents (which are a government-granted monopoly in the first place, after all) to a generics manufacturer if they won't play ball with a valuable treatment.
Because of the bullcrap that comes up routinely bashing the Canadian system, that's why. STF up about Canada and I'll STF up about the fubarred U.S. where I've lived months at a time every year since 2000 and witnessed a slew of medical events undergone by American friends. It's a disgrace by comparison.
Have you lived in Canada and personally experienced it's healthcare delivery system? It isn't perfect but it's light years ahead of the U.S. on universality of coverage.
All this ^^^^^ post shows is that you have a thin skin about the matter.
If you truly believe your system is better, and you know that no one who is criticizing it from another country can change the Canadian system/take away any of your benefits, then what any of those people in other countries think about your system/comments that they make about it should be irrelevant. We're talking about policies, payments, buildings, equipment, etc. A system. It's not as though someone is attempting to insult your wife, your kids, or your grandchildren.
Status:
"Smartened up and walked away!"
(set 26 days ago)
11,780 posts, read 5,792,331 times
Reputation: 14201
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Only in Murika!
Consider this from a thread in the health insurance section of these boards.:
False equivalency. Medicare is not the VA. Medicare does not own its facilities or employ doctors. Medicare allows private, self-employed doctors and hospitals to provide services for Medicare patients, with reimbursements specified by Medicare, identical to private insurance. The doctor can choose or not choose to accept Medicare patients. Patients supplement Medicare coverage with a Medigap. Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Australia, UK all have similar models for every citizen - not just retirees.
I've heard plenty of VA patients over the years rave about the VA on C-Span - especially for combat related disorders. VA provides a specific service for veterans not easily found among regular health care providers. Yes, over the years, the system has become inadequate to service the needs of veterans as that population increases due to all our wars and our longer life-spans. Further, facilities often are far removed from the rural veteran. But veterans (and others) can choose where to live. People who choose rural away from everything need a contingency plan to cover emergencies.
All this said, the population of the US is at least 330 million, probably higher. Canada, by contrast, has a population of only 36 million - one-tenth the size of the US. California has a greater population than Canada, as an example.
Aside from the huge monied interests of the health insurers, the sheer size of the US size and variance in geographic political views, exacerbated by media scare hype, prevent any common sense discussion on the value of Medicare for all.
And, contrary to the scare tactics employed on higher taxes, Canadians in general pay LESS than the US consumer in taxes and private health insurance costs when costs of insurance/deductibles/copays/balance billing AND regular income taxes are considered. I did this analysis a few years ago - it still applies:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne22
OK, looking at this table
Average household expenditure, by province (Canada)
Canadian family of 4 earning $80K pays:
$14,867 - Taxes (includes health insurance/retirement (i.e. FICA))
$x2,250 - Health Care
$17,117 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
US family of 4 earning $80k w/employer-subsidized insurance pays:
$x6,120 - FICA Taxes (SS - similar to Canadian pension)
$x4,790 - Federal Income Taxes (includes $2k child tax credit)
$x6,000 - Employer subsidized health insurance (low)
$x2,500 - Deductible, miscellaneous cost (low)
$19,410 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
US citizen w/employer insurance pays about $2k a year more - plus still has exposure to balance billing and max-out-of-pocket issues.
For the US family forced to buy privately or on the ACA, their costs would look more like this:
$x6,120 - FICA Taxes
$x4,790 - Federal Income Taxes
$x8,000 - ACA subsidized premium national average
$x6,000 - Deductible (maximum out-of-pocket up to $13,700)
$24,910 - Total Costs - Taxes/Health Care
That is at least a $7,800/year difference for those not covered by an employer. And, the American still has another almost $8k balance billing and max out-of-pocket exposure.
If anything, it's worse as the ACA is phased out.
These days, family premiums of $1,500/mo., imo, are unconscionable not to mention unaffordable. Seniors over 60 before reaching Medicare age commonly pay $1,200/mo. for coverage for ONE person. That alone should motivate anyone with common sense to be in favor of a better solution.
This horse has been beat to death many times on this board. Other good threads:
Cheap ER costs in Germany
How Much Do You Pay Per Month for Your Health Insurance?
Working for an orthopedic who had a private practice as well as worked at the VA - I can tell you - that his orthopedic patients at the VA routinely had their surgery done through our private office thru the Veterans Choice Program because there was a 6 month wait if the surgery was done within the VA system. There is a lot right about the system when it comes to mental health problems - there is a lot wrong about the system when it comes to regular healthcare
All this ^^^^^ post shows is that you have a thin skin about the matter.
If you truly believe your system is better, and you know that no one who is criticizing it from another country can change the Canadian system/take away any of your benefits, then what any of those people in other countries think about your system/comments that they make about it should be irrelevant. We're talking about policies, payments, buildings, equipment, etc. A system. It's not as though someone is attempting to insult your wife, your kids, or your grandchildren.
Oh sure; like I'm the only person on here that would ever get upset over the constant, unrelenting and incorrect disparaging of their country by another's citizenry.
Whenever a "new" idea comes up there's always revolt at first and finally acceptance. We totally accept Medicare for those over 65. I can definitely see Medicare for those over 50 or 55, just basically an extension of what already is in place.
I love this article - in particular:
Thanks for posting. It's been bookmarked.
Docs will do all in their power to prevent single payer. As docs they (we) want choices of plans to participate. As patients we should have choices too.
If the docs are left unsatisfied with income expectations, they will drag their feet and scrimp on service.
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