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Old 03-22-2019, 05:40 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,289 posts, read 9,172,660 times
Reputation: 22653

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
It’s too easy to trigger establishment types by threatening to upend the establishment. Rest easy, bro, your kids will never have to lift a finger. They can be professional trust fund beneficiaries!
What a relief! The trust fund babies and welfare queens of America will have something in common: never lifting a finger.

It speaks volumes about a person who refuses to be prosperous due to laziness or lack of IQ in the richest country on earth. You know, the country where people south of the border rather die to get into than to live in Mexico.

If poor uneducated criminal minded delinquents such as most hip hop artists can make millions due to doing something the world wants done, surely America's underclass can put their thinking cap on and do something the world wants done.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:10 AM
 
8,104 posts, read 3,932,794 times
Reputation: 3070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuptag View Post

Low wages are a result of excess labor in the market place. Deport a million or two illegals per year for a couple of years and watch labor availability tighten and wages increase.
Then the chamber of commerce and industry lobbyists would cry crocodile tears to their puppet politicians. Do you think they would agree with that?
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:12 AM
 
8,104 posts, read 3,932,794 times
Reputation: 3070
Quote:
Originally Posted by USMC1984 View Post
Why do you think you or anyone else has a right to what other people earned? This attitude is abhorrent!
Are you saying people should be given hand outs that did not earn it?
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:36 AM
 
5,479 posts, read 2,093,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J746NEW View Post
Are you saying people should be given hand outs that did not earn it?
You might want to read my post again...
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:31 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,523,088 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
The "horse" in your example being human nature itself. So call the ending economic/government system whatever you want, but your proposals/solutions/suggestions will always involve some form of forceful "breaking" of human nature to accept the saddle that is your socioeconomic goal.

The individual may have thinking that does not comport with your agenda, and we must break them of that thinking for the good of the collective. Does the label applied to that process really matter, or is being pedantic a way to avoid discussing what it is you are really after where the individual's free will and basic human nature are concerned?

See, an outcome gap is a perfectly natural occurrence with such a vast gap between inputs. What you seek is a way to subvert nature to your will to achieve a specific outcome or at least move in that outcomes direction. Well, in any other system where nature is somehow overcome, circumvented or otherwise "broken to saddle" what is required for that change to occur? Force.

In the case of "rich vs poor" you will need to apply force against the natural process of infinitely variable humans achieving widely disparate outcomes in the key socioeconomic areas of life. Since government cannot do anything without first taking from the citizenry, every action will require force, simply by definition.

If you give money, material and/or opportunity to the poor, you a) first have to take from everyone to fund all that and then b) actively discriminate against the non-poor when exercising your power. If you want to reduce the rich person's "richness" again, apply force via the various taking machinery the government specializes in, while again, actively discriminating. If either group finds individual ways around your various external force applications, apply violence to them as both punishment to them and reminder to others to stop trying to reject that saddle.

Bottom line, human beings need to be reconditioned to think and behave as you wish them to, and force/violence is the catalyst agent that makes that possible.

All you need to do now is hammer out the particulars of how much force you need to apply to "break" the citizen of their individuality and accept your collective saddle.

But stop trying to virtue signal like you're doing the world a favor. You want to break rich people of their individual behaviors and actions that make them more successful than poor people. Teaching/helping/gifting poor people hasn't achieved your goal in the 50+ years of the War on Poverty, so clearly, you're gonna need to close that gap from the other direction and simply punish success and break those bucking bronco rich folks to the saddle.

I'd argue so much less with you people if you could simply be intellectually honest about your goal and how you are going to set about achieving it.
Ooh..., if you're issue is with respect to what happens when people organize as a family, group, a government, a country and how our rights as individuals are infringed upon in the process, I really don't know what to tell you except that yes, that's an inevitable problem unless we go the way of no organization AKA anarchy.

I also surely don't think it is the "breaking of human nature" to help others, although human nature can take many forms.

I don't really see the challenge of "managed capitalism" much different from running a company. Leadership needs to decide what everyone is paid so that everyone has incentive enough to help the company. The sales people, for example, need incentive to go out and sell stuff, but also of course they don't keep all profits from their sales. Some of those profits are kept and used by the company to do other things that might also promote higher incentive for everyone to further promote the company. The sales people earn just enough commission to sell as much as they can, but not so much that they get too much of the profits! Some of those profits can also be used by the company to provide health care benefits, maternity leave, vacation..., that all further incentives existing employees and attracts new ones.

Every decision along these lines is a process of establishing that "sweet spot" that provides opportunity for everyone at all levels of the company to prosper. A balance very similar to what this country needs to find with respect to promoting a strong healthy economy while at the same time fostering the sort of environment that gives more people an opportunity to prosper.

Human nature can very well get behind that sort of goal I think, despite the challenges and knowledge that nothing is perfect. We can't expect complete freedom any more than we can expect complete perfection. We can expect to do well better as a country in these respects than we're doing now however!
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:37 AM
 
13,769 posts, read 5,490,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Ooh..., if you're issue is with respect to what happens when people organize as a family, group, a government, a country and how our rights as individuals are infringed upon in the process, I really don't know what to tell you except that yes, that's an inevitable problem unless we go the way of no organization AKA anarchy.

I also surely don't think it is the "breaking of human nature" to help others, although human nature can take many forms.

I don't really see the challenge of "managed capitalism" much different from running a company. Leadership needs to decide what everyone is paid so that everyone has incentive enough to help the company. The sales people, for example, need incentive to go out and sell stuff, but also of course they don't keep all profits from their sales. Some of those profits are kept and used by the company to do other things that might also promote higher incentive for everyone to further promote the company. The sales people earn just enough commission to sell as much as they can, but not so much that they get too much of the profits! Some of those profits can also be used by the company to provide health care benefits, maternity leave, vacation..., that all further incentives existing employees and attracts new ones.

Every decision along these lines is a process of establishing that "sweet spot" that provides opportunity for everyone at all levels of the company to prosper. A balance very similar to what this country needs to find with respect to promoting a strong healthy economy while at the same time fostering the sort of environment that gives more people an opportunity to prosper.

Human nature can very well get behind that sort of goal I think, despite the challenges and knowledge that nothing is perfect. We can't expect complete freedom any more than we can expect complete perfection. We can expect to do well better as a country in these respects than we're doing now however!
And when individuals disagree? What then?
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:38 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,523,088 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
Eliminating inheritance would be a step in the right direction.
Inheritance is another one of those incentives that gives people, SOME people anyway, incentive to save and perhaps leave something for their kids. Then again, of course there is the other side of that coin when too much left to the kids might ruin them and certainly remove that incentive for them to work and make more money of their own...

I've seen good example of both versions in real life, and here too though it's hard to find that perfect point of inheritance tax, I strongly believe we should be able to give and/or receive inheritance, but some of these fortunes passed along, represented by that uber wealth that flows to such a small percentage of people certainly deserves scrutiny. Seems we're far from that perfect point of inheritance tax in such cases...
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:41 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,523,088 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuptag View Post
You don't need community college. You can learn most skills via online classes.

End high school at 11th grade and send kids out to be apprentices or go on to college. Works in Quebec.
Funny how myopic some people can think sometimes...

While learning a trade may be the path for some, getting a good education more typically provided by a good four-year college is the preferred path for others, and the latter is the overwhelming better path when it comes to earning a higher income, having greater upward mobility, career flexibility. The correlation between level of education and higher income is very strong for obvious reasons. This is why rather than just get by as many people struggle to do with a trade (many that work only so long while you are young and able), access to quality education is how more people distance themselves from poverty and maybe actually get their financial nose above water over time.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:49 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,523,088 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
Nah, you’re pretty easy to figure out.

Poor people are just lazy and jealous.

Liberals/leftists/Democrats/socialists want to reward laziness and make everyone poor.

Republicans want to make everyone wealthy, and if you’re struggling it’s because you’re not trying (unless you’re a poor white Trump supporter... in that case, the problem is blacks, Mexicans, and the Democrats who enable them).

Trump just wants to make America great again.

You do OK for yourself, but you started out as a normal, red-blooded, middle-class American. You increased your wealth with hard work. And now you just want to provide for your kids, so they don’t have to work as hard as you did. You’ll be damned if the government takes your kids’ money and gives it to some welfare queen with a Cadillac and an Obamaphone.

How did I do, marine?
At ease soldiers!

Though I think it may serve a purpose to highlight these forms of dumbed-down stereotypical thinking, never mind the insults to our intelligence along with all the other insults, your mental ammo is better applied to a better balanced and reasoned exchange of opinion I'd like to promote in this thread. If only all us Americans could do better in this respect!

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em...
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:51 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,523,088 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
And when individuals disagree? What then?
Individuals disagree? When does that ever happen?
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