Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yet despite conservative attempts to invade peoples' bedrooms and control what should be personal medical decisions you attempt to lay it all off on liberals. I don't think that's a credible argument. The truth is that both sides of the aisle have insatiable hunger for power and instituting their own agendas.
Liberals- How is giving the federal government more power increase liberty?
There is a difference between power and service. Adding more waitstaff and busboys doesn't make the maître D more powerful, just more helpful and efficient.
We could write books about this stuff, but it comes down to a few things......
Consumer Protection - or "the meek shall inherit the earth".
It is VERY clear that the Right and Conservatives believe in fewer constraints on fraud....fraud, of course, goes by many names. But the Right has fought, at every turn, any regulations or laws or even agencies which protect the consumer.
That's stupid. You think me, and other Constitutional conservatives, want to have frauds committed against us, and to achieve this lofty goal, we want to eliminate consumer protection laws against fraud?? That's freaking ignorant. Where do you dig this crap up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
Your Choice - Freedom given by Corporations or Freedoms protected by The People.
This really covers a lot of it in a nutshell. Corporations exist for one reason - to make a profit. If they can make a bigger profit by ripping you off, dumping chemicals in the woods or making employees work 60 hours a week for no overtime - they WILL.
So we are back to this silliness?
You think I want corporations to poison the earth, air and water??? Why would I want that? I already told you how ignorant an assumption that was for you to make, and still you regurgitate it.
It's as if you have these ludicrous stereotypes in your head and you refuse to discard them, no matter how many times you are told how stupid and how completely false they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
Being as we do live in this corporate and industrialized society, liberals tend to believe that ONE function of government is to make sure they play fair and that they don't destroy our commons (air, water, land, health, etc.).
News flash, that belief includes everyone of us. Where do you get this notion that only liberals want clean air and water?
I think your problem is that you think any regulation, no matter how counterproductive, destructive, overly complicated, or trivial it is, is a good regulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
You can always find plenty of things wrong with government. However, I'd bet dollar to donuts when you look deeper into these things (MTBE, etc.), you will find corporate profiteers doing the science and telling the government that the products are safe.
And you will also find corrupt politicians and bureaucrats working with their political and corporate cronies to target specific companies withing industries to harm them by writing new tax laws, regulations, tariffs, or eliminating other laws and regulations because they benefit the small business competitors, etc... they do this to help their friends, donors and cronies and harm their competitors.
For example, small mining and drilling companies can claim a tax break to help them defer taxes on very expensive equipment. the large drilling and mining companies cannot take this tax deferment. This helps increase competition so the big oil companies, for example, will not have a complete monopoly. So when you saw the previous president trying to remove those tax deferments, he's not doing it with altruistic motives, he's doing it because he was trying to harm the small, independent oil companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
This is something I think many don't understand. I work in highly regulated industries. The government does not come and tell us what to do. Rather, though science and engineering, they find out what can be done to make stuff as clean or efficient as possible and work WITH us to determine what the standards should be. As an example, a 10 person team that takes 4 years to come up with new (cleaner) standards for air pollution on particular appliances might contain 8 people FROM THE INDUSTRY and 2 from the government.
Rather than understand these things, it appears many conservatives just want to dismiss them all and say "bad bad bad" government.
I work in a very regulated industry too, and we are always looking for intelligent ways to become more efficient.
We had to spend a few hundred million dollars to comply with new regulations GW Bush passed his term year in office. We were just about completed when Obama was elected and he wrote a new set of regulations, which declared us out of compliance with the regs we just spent millions to comply with. So, before we could even pay off the loans to comply with Bush's regs, we had to swallow tens of millions more in debt to comply with these new ones. And more new regs just kept rolling in every few months. It was as if EPA regulators were just spit-balling ideas and making them law, without a care in the world how realistic they were, how costly, or how deleterious they were. We had to close some portion of our business, lay off hundreds of people, because those regs made it impossible to operate.
Some of the federal regulations have been so horribly written, and destructive, and insane, that the SCOTUS had to step in and stop the EPA. So no, just because a regulation sounds innocent enough, sometimes they are done without thought, because a handful of bureaucrats and politicians are not omniscient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
So your solution to "too many lobbyists and corporate influence" seems to be GIVE MORE CORPORATE INFLUENCE AND THINGS WILL BE FINE....
That's backwards world.
Why do you put quotation marks around those words? I never wrote that.
You don't seem to want to believe that politicians and bureaucrats can have their own personal agendas, and use their power in office to force their agenda on the people. Sometime politicians will harm one company or industry, or benefit others, while they are in office, because they are serving some specific corporate interests, where the politician will be rewarded with millions of dollars after leaving office.
Case in point. Are you aware that a Netflix executive, named Sarandos and his wife's father bundled a million dollars for Obama's 2012 campaign? Then Obama appointed the man's wife as ambassador to the Bahamas. Then Obama made Netflix wealthy with his executive action to force net neutrality, which made Netflix immensely wealthy. Then Netflix hires Susan Rice to be on their board of directors. Then Sarandos negotiates to give the Obamas tens of millions of dollars for their own Netflix specials.
So when you see government implementing laws and regulations, it's not always done with altruistic intentions in mind, it's done out of greed and personal aggrandizement.
The conservative world view is built on the shakiest foundation imaginable.
Yup, that stupid US Constitution is so shaky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
It assumes that 100% of us are male, healthy, wise (we are ALL on the top of the bell curve, right?), middle ages or younger and have plenty of time, energy and sense to sort out 10's of thousands of "choices". The reality is MUCH different
Another silly notion. As if the bureaucrats and politicians in the federal government can sift thru all the ten of thousands of choices, and come up with one all-in-one package of products and services to meet the needs, wants desires, to fit the unique circumstances for 325 million people??
BTW, there are women who believe in the Rights and freedoms within the Constitution. Even staunch Constitutionalists like Mark Levin believe we need social welfare programs to help those most vulnerable among us, and for people down on their luck. No, we do not believe in socialism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
Do you really think an 80 year old couple knows best which Medicare Supplement Plans to buy? Does a 90 year old senior in Florida really know that the "service policy" is NOT insurance, but is rather 4 people in an office with nothing behind them??
So we back to people are too stupid to be trusted to make their own decisions, and we need the federal government to make their decisions for them? What's wrong with state or federal programs to help educate people so they can make informed decisions? We have state governments who write laws to prevent fraud. Do you only trust the feds?
So on the one hand, you do not trust the elderly to make informed decisions, and then you don't trust state government to so either. What is it with you then, do you think the federal government is perfection? That the federal bureaucrats know what personal, family circumstances are, that the feds know all the needs, wants, desires for 325 million people? That only the feds know what's best, and we should just let them decide on a few choices they will allow us to choose from??
To sum up, you think the federal government is perfection, that only they can understand the complexities of life, and only they know what products and services are best for us. That we should empower the government to take over every facet of industry and production, and let them decide what is best for us. Because if I walk into the produce isle of my local grocery store and look at the dozens and dozens of types and brands of cheese, I'll be too overwhelmed by all the choices available to me, and life would be simpler if all there was, was government cheese.
Are Democrats really hostile to religious people though? Democrats want a secular government completely neutral to religion if that's what you mean.
Fox News and conservative media has convinced most of the country that upholding the First Amendment and separating church and state is "anti-Christian" and "anti-American."
So do I.
You think I want a bunch of bible thumpers dictating my life to me, as their religion tells them I should be living it????
As a conservative constitutionalist I can read - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". that's the beauty of our Constitution, the founders saw the folly and the tyranny of a theocracy.
In a power vacuum, tyrants exercise their will over the weak. A system of anarchy is a lawless, violent existence.
In your beloved state system, tyrants exercise their will over everybody, and inflict harm upon them every single day. A state system is an oppressive, violent existence that feeds you enough welfare state opiates to keep you drugged and in thrall to your oppressor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009
I really don't understand how anyone could pine for such an existence, as it would be miserable.
Real freedom has always scared people addicted to the free stuff they are given by their masters. Your rhetoric evokes the house slave that el Hajj Malik el Shabazz talked about 50+ years ago. You love your master because you have clothes, food and shelter that you have been convinced only Master can provide. You tell the field slave like me who pines for something other than slaving in Master's field that I am foolish to want freedom, because look at what Master "gives" us, and all Master asks in return is our labor, our tribute and our obedience.
And you have the utterly laughable belief that a different Master, or a change in the number of rooms in Master's house or the size of his property/bank account will change the nature of your slavery.
In the world of things people don't understand, I don't understand how people think freedom and security are found in giving someone else a monopoly on force and violence such that those with that monopoly can do anything and everything they please, up to and including murder, all because a promise of comfort is attached to it?
1. Trump was quoted today as being against even ANY let-up in Federal laws and practice involving even POT.
2. He's "winning" on defunding Planned Parenthood - because that org refuses to let government and the Church dictate what goes on between women and their doctors and caregivers.
3. Wasn't the "we stick a sensor up your thing" situation relatively recent? Why....2013! That's a long way from 1990.
I could give many more examples but most probably won't listen. The current situation is basically one between Authoritarian Corporatists and those who want Government to do the Will of the People.
Of course there is always overlap, but there is a valid reason why blue states legalized weed first.
So do I.
that's the beauty of our Constitution, the founders saw the folly and the tyranny of a theocracy.
They may have seen it, but it obviously was trumped by the radical right. We now have a prayer breakfast in DC which was set up by a group that wants Jesus installed at the head of every government around the world.
I WISH we lived in the country you describe. But we don't We simply don't. In many states of this Union...ad well as in Federal power positions, if you don't "declare faith" you simply can't possibly enter the realm of politics.
So effectively the Religious Right has created a litmus test AND forced people to lie. No way these pols are all religious......
So we back to people are too stupid to be trusted to make their own decisions, and we need the federal government to make their decisions for them? What's wrong with state or federal programs to help educate people so they can make informed decisions? We have state governments who write laws to prevent fraud. Do you only trust the feds?
Well, a long story but you sorta prove my point.
It's not that people are stupid...it's a proven fact that our brains were never wired to make "choices" by the tens of thousands among millions of possible angles trotted out by marketing specialists.
Also, age erodes the brain. It does. You can claim otherwise, but an older person is more vulnerable physically AND mentally. Add to this the people who were injured in some or born with "less" and you have MOST PEOPLE...at least some time in their life.
So, the last sentences really prove we are on the same side...or close. You seem to support BIG GOVERNMENT when it is - say - only 10X the size of the population when we made the Constitution (State of Texas, for example).
However, if read the discussions of the founders....leading up to the formation of this country, you will see that they knew 100% that the states were small enough and owned by business and slave and other similar interests...and that they COULD NOT fairly settle these matters.
I've seen most all levels of government. But I won't tell long stories here except to assure you that town (even small towns!), city, county and state governments are probably much more corrupt than the Federal Government. They are completely owned....from top to bottom.
As as example, we had situations which I will liken to Trump/Russia (but smaller, of course) at the county level. They involved influence, nepotism, murder, sex and the like. These were 100% erased before they could ever hit the news (payoffs, pleas and cancellation of trials and testimony).
Believe me. You don't want most states and counties and towns making these types of laws.
Rick Scott doesn't care about Granny...and he was at state level for 8 years. His firm was the primary example of fraud and he believes very much in profitable fraud...so much the better if you can make it "law", which he did in many ways....
Sorry, the perfect is the enemy of the good. As another example i'd much rather have standardized Federal Election laws and oversight than putting things in the hands of, as an example, the POTUS's brother or some other paid-off state pol.
They may have seen it, but it obviously was trumped by the radical right. We now have a prayer breakfast in DC which was set up by a group that wants Jesus installed at the head of every government around the world.
I WISH we lived in the country you describe. But we don't We simply don't. In many states of this Union...ad well as in Federal power positions, if you don't "declare faith" you simply can't possibly enter the realm of politics.
So effectively the Religious Right has created a litmus test AND forced people to lie. No way these pols are all religious......
This country was founded on the Judeo-Christian values and still to this day in spite of the Frankfurt school after World War II brainwashing our students with their marxist garbage propaganda still a majority Christian nation. This country was not founded on atheist ideology like all the communists countries. Get over it.
Please do not respond with a "reducto ad absurdum" , such as "Somalia had no government- move there".
No one in the US wants no federal government. We fought a war over that notion 150 years ago. However, the power of the federal government has continually increased over time. That power comes that the expense of someone or something- usually individuals or the local government.
So how does sacrificing more individual liberty to the central government make you more free? I personally feel more qualified to make decisions regarding my life than a politician in an area remote from me.
Again, I am not advocating anarchy, which is ridiculous. One needs some central government to maintain a civil society and provide checks to business that could expand to monopolies, which are rarely in the public good, as well as some minimal "security net" like medicare and social security. Essentially everyone agrees with such plans which have proven beneficial and have been the only programs to reduce poverty in the US.
You and rest of conservatives just supported a new precedent to give President authority to bypass Congress and unilaterally make budgetary decisions, so your claims about being against govt overreach are hypocritical at best.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
