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If they want to split their Church, that is their choice.
Yes, I have. Now, I'll admit that the issue doesn't affect me in any way (I have no personal stake in the outcome), but that's not the point. Why I care is evident from my earlier posts here.
Many denominations don't even have female clergy so that already makes the UMC a liberal denomination. All of the churches I've ever attended regularly were independent Baptist or Southern Baptist and none of them have ever had a female pastor. I've visited one non-denominational church with friends where there was a female pastor and that church was otherwise conservative though they had contemporary worship.
I do think that within the church, the doctrines trump everything so churches have every right to not allow gay people in or to perform gay marriage and churches should also have the right to not allow female clergy. Even the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have female priests and Catholics are typically more liberal.
Some Independent Baptist seminaries ordain women, who often find employment - some as pastors - in Independent Baptist and non-denominational churches. As has been mentioned previously, the United Methodist Church routinely ordains women, as it has done for over 150 years. Many other Protestant denominations also ordain women.
Are you aware that there is considerable study of allowing women to become deacons in the Catholic Church? It seems the Pope is very interested in this, considering the well-known issues with single male Catholic clergy and the dwindling interest in the priesthood as a profession.
It's hard to argue that only men should be ordained as priests or deacons, based on the example of Jesus's disciples - when Mary Magdalene, Martha, and her sister Mary (as well as Mary, the mother of Jesus) were just as close followers and supporters of Jesus as were the twelve disciples - and certainly better Christians than at least one of those original disciples (Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ for twenty pieces of silver). Although they had all too human flaws, were more loving and were of stronger character than Peter, who denied Christ three times, yet became a saint and the founder of the Roman Catholic Church due to Christ's forgiveness and his repentance, reformation and resulting sterling life of Christian dedication and missions afterwards. Other examples of devout and dedicated women can be found in both Testaments.
These highly significant women were all sainted by the Catholic Church and are viewed as saints by many Protestant denominations as well - yet if they miraculously returned to this life today, they could not be ordained as ministers of the Church, according to Roman Catholicism.
That's hard for this Protestant to comprehend, as it seems very narrow and contradictory. Almost as discriminatory as someone stating that all the clergy must have brown eyes and dark hair, regardless of the character and faithful dedication of anyone who doesn't share this coloring, because that was the coloring of the original twelve plus Jesus himself...T
Too much emphasis on the physical traits, including gender, and not enough on the heart and soul.
Male Catholics who are married can be accepted for the diaconate and remain married. So can single and widowed Catholic men become deacons, but they must remain unwed and celibate, with an exception I'll describe shortly. It is not an easy path to reach this point, and requires much study, dedication and contemplative prayer, along with self-examination as well as clerical examinations by higher clergy before ordination.
Wives of aspiring married Catholic deacons must also undergo questioning about their commitment to their religion and to their husbands and become knowledgeable about the requirements of being a deacon, which can often include many hours away from home, serving others in the community. They must promise to accept this and remain supportive, devout and loving spouses.
However, if an active and ordained deacon's marriage ends in divorce, like other divorced Catholics within the church, he is not allowed to remarry, even if he is not at fault, loves his wife and any children and has made every effort to preserve the marriage.
Nor can he seek an annulment - that's the big difference between a Catholic deacon and the Catholic laity. A divorced deacon, regardless of cause or fault, must remain celibate and also in many situations is discouraged from continuing to actively serve, though he remains a deacon and subject to the rules of the church. It seems that since such a deacon's marriage failed, even if he is not at fault, he is viewed as a bad example, something which can cause great pain, self-doubt and depression.
To me, a non-Catholic with many Catholic long-time friends, this seems like such a punitive waste of talent and dedication - at least allow the poor guy to continue to serve others as he initially felt called to do, even if he can't remarry in the church or engage in a committed romantic relationship! I don't know what occurs if a divorced Catholic deacon reconciles with his former wife - any info. from anyone better acquainted with this situation than I am?
Widowers who are deacons can still serve, though they are also discouraged from remarrying. But there is a very sexist statement which says they may consider remarriage if they are left with a lot of small kids and need to find a good woman who would take them on. Good grief, man, hire a nanny, if that's the only reason to marry!
If Catholic women are ever ordained as deacons in their church, I would assume the same rules and requirements would apply to them. But I do wonder if a widowed female deacon with many small children would be allowed to remarry - because her new husband would be good at child-care!
Last edited by CraigCreek; 02-27-2019 at 01:15 AM..
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is mind-boggling to me that some are going out of their way to try to force churches to accept homosexuality. Note, I have ZERO problem with homosexuality, and fight for equal and fair treatment of all under our laws and in practice as a general matter. But why the huge push to change church doctrine to support something that the Bible explicitly condemns?
This seems like more of an effort to get-along instead of adherence to scripture.
Note, the teachings and treatment towards gays, women, and other groups within certain religions is a big reason why I have shunned organized religion in many ways. But I damn well won't advocate for a religion to live a lie and accept something that its foundational text says is wrong. That reeks of arrogance in my view. Instead, I have aligned myself with like-minded people intent on forging our own way.
I grew up in the UMC, and what is happening now has nothing to do with them being "forced." This debate is an internal matter.
True, but that was in reference to the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Its important to note that Wesley believed in the primacy of scriptural authority, while placing only secondary emphasis on tradition, reason, culture, etc. Christian scripture is fairly clear on homosexuality. And its even a stretch to me to argue that religious tradition supports a Christian church recognizing same sex marriages. Of course, these are just one of many reasons why I shun organized religion, whether Christianity or a few other faiths.
Also, and I admit that I'm not authority on everything Christianity-related, but I know of no mainstream Christian denomination that does not view the Bible as a guiding document/word of God, not to be shunned based on changes of today. If anything, I've seen (in more recent times) several denominations arrive at different (albeit strained, in my view) interpretations of biblical doctrine and intent.
The Bible also has quite a bit to say about divorce, too, yet in most denominations, it is not an issue.
OK, sorry for the confusion, "Scripture, tradition, and reason" is the basis for the Episcopal Church. I should have made that clear.
The Episcopal Church does indeed use Scripture as a guide, and as a matter of fact, more Scripture is read in an Episcopal service than in any other church I've ever attended, although I haven't been in every denomination on the planet. But it's studied in context and with an explanation as to the culture and environment and what was going on at the time a specific passage was written.
If it's not read that way, a person can just pull a quote out of context and recite it to make it sound like whatever they want it to say. The Bible has been misused that way for all of history, as an excuse for slavery, as an excuse for anti-Semitism, and as an excuse for war.
I will give you an example. I've heard people use the verse "If a man doesn't work, he should not eat" as their reason for denying food to unemployed or homeless people. But that's not the context in which those words were written. It comes from a letter to one of the early churches, which lived communally and which at that time thought Jesus was coming back any moment. Certain people in the community figured there was no point in working because the world was going to end any day now, so they weren't pulling their weight. The author of that letter was telling them to do their share as part of their community.
I think we can all agree that to take that verse out of context now and use it as an excuse to not feed the needy among us is more than un-Christian--it's just being a rotten human being.
Same with the "gay clobber verses". Does it really matter if someone loves someone of their own gender? In a world where our genealogical lines for social and tribal reasons don't matter do we really think that God, if we believe there is one, cares who has sex with whom as long as its consensual and no one is being forced or harmed?
Reason.
Not sure if you have ever been to a Catholic service, but they are very similar, particularly in this regard.
No wonder people are leaving churches in droves with twaddle like this being peddled. No, "the absolute core of the Christian faith" is not "love your neighbors." The core of the faith is the sacrifice made on the cross and the grace rendered unto all those with faith in Him.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
This is the twaddle on which our church bases its decisions:
[i]The Greatest Commandment
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
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I think that both of the above posts are correct because chiociolliscalves is presenting what the Christian religion is (for the most part, at least, for traditional fundamentalists and evangelicals), while Mightyqueen is presenting what Jesus taught.
So, when one identifies himself or herself as a "Christian", I think that the question is whether the person follows a particular Christian religion (Methodist, Catholic, Pentecostal, or whatever) or whether s/he tries to follow what Jesus taught.
I have absolutely no problem with those people who believe in what Jesus taught (and I try to follow many of his teachings), but I do have major problems with almost all of the Christian religions.
Kind of eerie that Jesus warned the times would come when christians are hated and despised by the secular world, it would even reach the point of imprisonment, torture, and death sentences!
This may not be related to that warning, but if not, it will be something similar (something that christians believe that is very unpopular in the secular world)
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,303 posts, read 54,258,894 times
Reputation: 40632
Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger
Whether you believe in God or not, the destruction of these churches is a terrible thing for humanity. Look at what happens to people who have no faith in their lives.
WHAT reason is there to believe a lack of churches precludes the existence of faith?
IF God is everywhere, WHY the need for specific buildings?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is mind-boggling to me that some are going out of their way to try to force churches to accept homosexuality. Note, I have ZERO problem with homosexuality, and fight for equal and fair treatment of all under our laws and in practice as a general matter. But why the huge push to change church doctrine to support something that the Bible explicitly condemns?
This seems like more of an effort to get-along instead of adherence to scripture.
Note, the teachings and treatment towards gays, women, and other groups within certain religions is a big reason why I have shunned organized religion in many ways. But I damn well won't advocate for a religion to live a lie and accept something that its foundational text says is wrong. That reeks of arrogance in my view. Instead, I have aligned myself with like-minded people intent on forging our own way.
Everyone has options.....I wouldn't set foot in these liberal groups to begin with. I expect people will vote with their feet heading for the door. Good news, Jesus doesn't take attendance every Sunday....set up a home Bible study and you're ahead of the game.....just IMO
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