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Old 03-21-2019, 11:46 AM
 
Location: MS
4,395 posts, read 4,910,840 times
Reputation: 1564

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
So why don't we just add nuclear weapons to home ownership seeing there will always be someone who is not following the law...
Go buy one. If you were my neighbor, I'd still invite you over for the cook-out.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:46 AM
Status: "Let this year be over..." (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,085,392 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
I'm not a hunter but I'm fairly certain hunting with an "assault rifle" is completely illegal. Pretty sure you realize that.
Which is why I posted what I did, some posters believe that having a home arsenal is their 2nd amendment right. Others perceive that NZ proposed action is a complete hindrance on their gun rights.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:48 AM
 
Location: San Diego
50,265 posts, read 47,023,439 times
Reputation: 34060
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpgypsy View Post
Far more sense than the pro-life GOP that refused to even pass or consider background checks after 20 six and seven year old babies were slaughtered.


And to the conspiracy theorists, spare us your responses, as no one in touch with reality gives you and your crisis actor nonsense a thought.
Shall I list all the stores I bought a gun where I HAD to pass a bgc?


Even though a felon can easily bypass a bgc.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:49 AM
 
13,955 posts, read 5,621,810 times
Reputation: 8609
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I had to chuckle here because I'm a big fan of the AR-15 and get made fun of all the time for it. "Why do you like that pu$$y gun?"
Well, I am not calling it a "pu$$y gun", but if my tactical objective was killing multiple targets that weigh >50 pounds, are massed together and at decently close ranges, it simply would be one of the last weapons I'd choose for that particular goal.

To me, a semiauto .223 makes all the sense in the world for a proper varmint hunt. Like, my farm has a gopher/skunk/possum pest control problem, or it's small game season in Ohio, and my bag limit for fox, possum, weasel, raccoons and coyotes is unlimited? That's the wheelhouse of the .223 semiauto, imho. And for that wheelhouse, it's perfect.

If I am working inside a building, I have no particular concerns about checking targets, and my ranges are less than 30 yards...sorry, I am going to the 12 gauge, and I have at least one 45 pistol as a sidearm. When I did shipboard combat, reaction security and various other CQC training scenarios, shotguns and pistols were the weapons of choice. I could make a case for a 7.62 NATO (308) carbine maybe, but inside buildings, 12 gauge shotguns firing 00 buckshot are about perfect. I know for a fact I'd never, ever choose a .223 firing plink FMJ, no way in hell.

But again, for varmint/small game hunts...they kick ass.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:50 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,611,558 times
Reputation: 18521
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatblueheron View Post
Now how EASY was that, outlawing assault weapons???

We are so stupid. They are not. They saw the problem and basically fixed it. And the US families of victims still cry.....



Korea Town, during the Rodney King Riots!


Prey v. Predator.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:50 AM
Status: "Let this year be over..." (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,085,392 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by max210 View Post
AR15 (the "assault rifle" you are implying) is very commonly used in hunting and competitive shooting.

The reason we have unrestricted access to weapons in the US has nothing to with hunting. We are allowed them because we have a natural right to self preservation, in particular against an oppressive tyrannical government.

NZ does not care about it's people's freedom.
The last I read time I read the 2nd amendment it pertained to the need for a well regulated militia seeing we had no standing army at that time, not the need for a home arsenal. But don't bother to respond because neither of our views will change and this discussion is on New Zealand and her potential change in the law.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:52 AM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,137,287 times
Reputation: 13661
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
They did the same in NY and CA yet I can still buy one. I'm guessing NZ will have about the same luck.
They'll be fine. It's throughout the entire country, which is border-protected and surrounded by water and only neighboring a country that also has tough gun laws. Hell, that's probably why the shooter didn't target Australia and travelled all the way to NZ where gun laws were much softer (at the time).

With NY and CA, there's no way it'd work because the states are pretty much open borders that can simply be waltzed right over.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:53 AM
 
12,265 posts, read 6,469,490 times
Reputation: 9435
If you open up enough unlocked or even locked car doors you can avoid those silly background checks. It happens every day.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:54 AM
 
Location: MS
4,395 posts, read 4,910,840 times
Reputation: 1564
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
The last I read time I read the 2nd amendment it pertained to the need for a well regulated militia seeing we had no standing army at that time, not the need for a home arsenal. But don't bother to respond because neither of our views will change and this discussion is on New Zealand and her potential change in the law.
What is your idea of a home arsenal? 1 gun? 2 guns? 10?


I've seen news reports from the northeast US showing "arsenals" that police had confiscated. Most are a pitiful excuse for a gun collection here.
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Old 03-21-2019, 11:54 AM
 
Location: San Diego
18,725 posts, read 7,604,328 times
Reputation: 14998
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
The last I read time I read the 2nd amendment it pertained to the need for a well regulated militia
Time to read it again.

(sigh)

For the 382nd time....

------------------------------------------

Reproduced in full with written permission from the author (see below):

J. Neil Schulman: The Unabridged Second Amendment

The Unabridged Second Amendment

by J.Neil Schulman

Author, Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns & Self Control Not Gun Control
Webmaster, The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock

The following is reprinted from the September 13, 1991 issue of Gun Week, and also appears under the title "The Text of The Second Amendment" in The Journal on Firearms and Public Policy, Summer 1992, Volume 4, Number 1.

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, Editorial Coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style: The Consensus.

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a distinguished seventeen-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publishers' Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter on July 26, 1991:

I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

The text of the Second Amendment is, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,"is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary.

My letter framed several questions about the text of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance.

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, ProfessorCopperud sent me the following analysis (into which I've inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

[Copperud:] The words "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state," contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitute a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying " militia," which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject "the right," verb "shall"). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as essential for maintaining a militia.

In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] (1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to "a well-regulated militia"?;]

[Copperud:] (1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people.

[Schulman]: (2) Is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right "shall not be infringed"?;]

[Copperud:] (2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia.

[Schulman]: (3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well-regulated militia is, in fact, necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" null and void?;]

[Copperud:](3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence.

[Schulman]: (4) Does the clause "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," grant a right to the government to place conditions on the "right of the people to keep and bear arms," or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?;]

[Copperud:] (4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia.

[Schulman: (5) Which of the following does the phrase "well-regulated militia" mean: "well-equipped," "well-organized," "well-drilled," "well-educated," or "subject to regulations of a superior authority"?]

[Copperud:] (5) The phrase means "subject to regulations of a superior authority"; this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military.

[Schulman:] If at all possible, I would ask you to take into account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written two-hundred years ago, but not to take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated.]

[Copperud:] To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged."

[Schulman:] As a "scientific control" on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence, and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and
(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict "the right of the people to keep and read Books" only to "a well-educated electorate"- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?]

[Copperud:] (1) Your "scientific control" sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.
(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation.

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."


So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all government formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.


(C) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited. All other rights reserved.
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