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Old 03-24-2019, 02:31 PM
 
8,104 posts, read 3,939,974 times
Reputation: 3070

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
True health insurance would be great. But we don't have that. What insurance has become is a pre-paid medical plan and since medical providers know there is plenty of sunk cost in the kitty, which YOU have contributed, they are going to milk every cent of that, and then take actions to ensure that you pony up even more. They will extract whatever they can get.

So the solution is to put NOTHING in the kitty. No guaranteed source of funds....THEN the providers will lower their prices to compete for scarce healthcare dollars. That doesn't happen today because they have a captive audience that has already walked in and said, " I have X to spend"...well guess what the minimum fee is gonna be??

Can all you bright folks figure that out?

Good for YOU!

Now, act like the bright folks you are and STOP being stupid!
Those industries are not going to give up their presence in Washington DC short of you getting an army to take them on. What are you going to do about it now?
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,496,583 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, it doesn't. It lets people proclaiming their supposed altruism to put their own money where their mouths are.
Yes it does. People will be less inclined to donate, if other people, such as yourself don't. Because if not enough people donate, then they will not be helping, which will disincentivize them from donating
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:53 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,697 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13590
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
How much do you think breast cancer treatment costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a stem cell transplant costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a broken leg costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think childbirth costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a kidney transplant cost? With and without insurance?

How much do you think mental health intervention costs? With and without insurance?
How much do you think your supposedly altruistic brothers and sisters will voluntarily donate to fund such?
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:58 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,697 posts, read 44,470,964 times
Reputation: 13590
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Yes it does. People will be less inclined to donate, if other people, such as yourself don't. Because if not enough people donate, then they will not be helping, which will disincentivize them from donating
That indicates they don't value donating their own money to help the poor. Society values.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:03 PM
 
Location: MS
4,396 posts, read 4,894,284 times
Reputation: 1559
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper View Post
If we did get government out, there is no evidence whatever that prices would "plummet."
Competition in the marketplace is competition. Whether it is an electronics business or a hospital. I'm literally in the middle of two hospitals in my county. One is 10 miles to the west and the other 12 miles to the east. While the current law forcing hospitals to post prices is a start, it still does not give the consumer enough information to make an informed decision. If I have Blue Cross insurance, I should be able to log in and find a list of ailments and their associated costs to treat. I then compare the list to the other hospital.


Before someone says "what if it is an emergency?". Broken bone emergency like when I dropped off my mother-in-law at the emergency room, I should compare ahead of time and know. Heart attack emergency where the amber lamps picks you up?



Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper View Post
The only thing that we know for a fact would plummet would be average life expectancy.
Actually we don't know that. I'm all for an Amazon/Yelp type rating system from from customers. Also an accreditation system like schools and universities have would be valuable to the consumer.


Healthcare is a service. Albeit a life saving service at times, but it is still a service and should be treated as such in the market. If I think about it, I picked my primary doc and dentist exactly the way I picked my plumber.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,761 posts, read 11,973,388 times
Reputation: 30239
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
How much do you think breast cancer treatment costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a stem cell transplant costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a broken leg costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think childbirth costs? With and without insurance?

How much do you think a kidney transplant cost? With and without insurance?

How much do you think mental health intervention costs? With and without insurance?
My mother had a glioblastoma, the same type as Senator McCain, although she only lived for 9 months past diagnosis. She was diagnosed on a Friday, had brain surgery on a Monday, was hospitalized a few times and then spent the last 5 months in hospital.

She had private insurance through my dad's company plan so she only paid pennies for any prescriptions not dispensed while in hospital, and had coverage for a semi-private hospital room. The only bill I paid directly was a $45 ambulance ride when she was discharged from hospital the first time. Everything else, covered by OHIP. (Ontario Health Insurance Plan)
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:08 PM
 
2,305 posts, read 2,396,877 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS_Referee View Post
Are you suggesting we should have to pay for our own healthcare insurance AND the healthcare insurance of others too? You seem certain that your goal of generosity, charity and benevolence with other peoples' money is somehow acceptable and not theft and that leaves me baffled.
You are already paying for the healthcare of others: if you are old you get medicare, if you are poor or illegal you get medicaid. Only the middle class gets screwed. Make medical insurance essentially a tax, and you free the middle class to create to be part of the entrepreneurial class.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,496,583 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That indicates they don't value donating their own money to help the poor. Society values.
No it doesn't
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:19 PM
 
11,618 posts, read 5,660,972 times
Reputation: 13997
Here's one from a Canadian doctor that says it's rotten!

https://www.city-journal.org/html/ug...are-13032.html

They go by gov't regulations - so when you're 70 and need cardiac surgery - the gov't will decide if ot's cost effective.

As someone stated above - no insurance changes are going to be made before the gov't deals with the expensive costs of pharmas and hospitals.

The free market does work and here's an example. When MRIs were introduced and became the go to for a diagnosis - they cost $1000. We had to get a referral from insurance companies documenting that both medication and PT had been tried and many times there was a dr to dr consult before the test would be approved. Two years later - one of the facilities decided to drop the cost to $500 as any medical testing costing $500 or less didn't need approval from the insurance companies. Needless to say they were inundated with patients needing MRIs while the MRI machines at other facilities sat unused until they too lowered their prices. At that time it still cost $1000 if you had a compensation case, No Fault case - or were private pay - but if you had insurance - the cost dropped to $500.

Drugs are cheaper in other countries because they set a price they are willing to pay. We don't so Americans absorb the cost for developing the drugs and any loss incurred by making deals for lower prices so the drugs will be used outside of the US.

Until the gov't plays hardball with the pharamceuticals and hospitals - no insurance change will make things better for the American taxpayer.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Free From The Oppressive State
30,197 posts, read 23,599,334 times
Reputation: 38524
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahzzie View Post
You're dreaming if you think ditching regulations and letting the medical industry self regulate is a good idea. I don't want my doctor "trained" in some back alley warehouse in the finer arts of human anatomy. That's just nuts.
I'm going to let someone educate you on why the left's utopia dream of "universal healthcare" isn't going to work, with a link at the end of this post.

Since I know that most won't even watch the video, let me give you a summary:

1) All those countries who are doing well on healthcare, were doing well on healthcare before the implementation of a nationalized healthcare. Example: Sweden and Norway did not become healthy because of it, they were already healthy countries. The reason that the U.S. is unhealthy is because we don't eat right and a lot of people do not exercise, as compared to other countries that are considered healthy.

2) U.S. healthcare is heavily regulated and heavily subsidized.which leads to increased costs - which is why it's so expensive. It's not a free market system, and it's not completely regulated, it's in between those. The U.S. is #1 in "5 year cancer survival rates" because we have the choice to spend the money on long term care.

3) You can have 3 things in healthcare: affordability, universality, and equality. That would be the goal, but no matter what system is used, none of them can guarantee more than 2 of those.

If the healthcare is universal, it is not affordable - the government racks up massive surcharges. Canada, UK, Norway, for example, all have extraordinarily expensive healthcare, and that causes the tax rates on lower and middle class to be exorbitantly high. (Side note: The left wants $15/hour because they believe that every job should provide a "living wage", yet also want free healthcare, never once putting the pieces together to see that they can't have both.)

If you want affordability and quality, you cannot have universality.

If you're looking for affordable and universality, you ration the healthcare - some single payer systems are like that. Do you really want your healthcare rationed? What about when it's your turn, and it's rationed, so you don't get the care that you need?

If you're looking for universality and quality, it's going to cost a LOT of money - and you will be taxed for it, so it's not going to be "free" because anytime you put the government into it, it's not "free". It comes from your wallet, it comes from my wallet, it comes from everyone elses wallet. There is no "free" when government is involved. In fact, when government is involved, the prices skyrocket. (See: Price of higher education once the government got involved in the loan business.)

Affordability and quality is free market - that's what free market systems generate.

If you don't want to be taken care of by someone trained in a back alley warehouse on the fine arts of human anatomy, then the last thing that you want is universal healthcare. Because universal healthcare drives down the supply of doctors and nurses - so you will have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to import people from other countries (See: The UK), or you have to spend even more ridiculous amounts of money to keep the supply of doctors and nurses that you already have.

In other words, those calling for universal healthcare, or even single payer, have no idea what they are truly asking for.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pImskIGmKq0

Also, we already have a system like that in the U.S. It's called the VA. If you've never used the VA, of course you don't have a clue how poorly it has been run. You have no idea the ridiculous waiting times. You have no idea how they cancel on you, without notice, and make you wait another month or 2 or more for that appointment that you finally got and waited a month, or 2 or more to get - just to have them tell you, "Oh? We canceled that. You should have received a phone call letting you know that" after you have taken time off of work and driven to the facility for your appointment. Imagine that on a scale of 300+ million people.

If the VA was so good, why do they offer veterans the choice (Veteran's Choice) to see a doctor outside of the VA? Because everyone knows that the VA isn't the ultimate choice in healthcare. Image that on a scale of 300+ million people.

Students wanted the government to come in and help them out with college tuition, the government did it. Now the prices are even higher than they were before, and people have really high student loan debts because of it. Yes, some people did take more out on that loan than they should have, since they waned that loan to supplement their lifestyle as well as pay for their room/board/books/tuition/lab fee, etc. But even those who didn't make such foolish decisions still have really high student loan debts that will take them years to pay off - because that is what happens when you ask the government to come in and "fix" things.

If you think the price of healthcare if high now, wait until you get your first paycheck after universal healthcare has been implemented. It will be much lower than what you're used to - and by the time you realize that you made a mistake, it will be too late.
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