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Old 03-30-2019, 07:13 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,599,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
OMG,
In this lie is believed only in the West and a handful of marginals in Russia. Most of the Russian population does not consider Stalin as a "bloody tyrant".
Hah, you mean the Russian Population where the Son of Stalins cook owns ALL the National Media?

Funny stuff. You can't really believe Putin is feeding you the truth...or do you?

Remember, before Stalins Cooks Son KGB dude, the people believed differently.

Propaganda works very well. It should be quite evident why Stalin was at his most unpopular 50 years back - and why, after Putin took over ALL STATE MEDIA, he is once against gaining popularity.

Stalin has a "popularity" of 16% in Ukraine and even lower in many of the former Sat. States. If this is a great man, we need to tell these countries that lived under his Iron Fist.

 
Old 03-30-2019, 07:15 AM
 
8,104 posts, read 3,937,968 times
Reputation: 3070
Quote:
Originally Posted by mash123 View Post
I don't need researches for this. I lived at those times. And I remember very well the 4 hour lines for bones.
Why USSR collapsed? Because people did not believe in it anymore.
I lived in those times as well.
I remember the cold war and the propaganda fed to us at the time.
We were told to look at the Soviet Union as an example of Communism where everyone is poor with no worker unions to fight for them while the US had tons of unions at the time.

Now unions are evil and have been mostly killed off so the commies won.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 07:21 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,599,111 times
Reputation: 14048
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Lol, we know...

"Stalin was also a Far Right Wing Authoritarian."

As much reading as I have done in my life about Stalin, one thing no one has ever described as is "right wing" anything. To even attempt to put Stalin or about anyone outside the US into some little "left" or "right" definitions as it relates to the US is ridiculous. Those terms as you understand them only exist in the US, for the US, and taking some person from say the 1930's and trying to assign such a label you use now, is ridiculous. But you always do this, any and everything you have even the slightest disagreement with, you classify as "right wing". Now the grand Soviet leader is "right wing", which is laughable, considering the entire concept of the USSR if translated to modern terms, is a wholly leftist concept.

Chernobyl by the way, was a Soviet design, not Russian. Did you forget the Soviet Union existed or something?
My point is that Putin, the son of Stalin's cook, is a Right Wing Authoritarian who even uses the Church as a weapon.

Since Putin and his media have glorified Stalin, he is "of their type".

It's one of those situations where you are so far left you are Right (Stalin).

No doubt the "foundation" of the Russian Revolution was supposed to be "Leftist" Marxism. I'm talking more about how it turned out and the modern era.

If Putin denounced Stalin and said that Liberty and Freedom and tolerance and diversity were the #1 goals of the new Russia, we'd say he was not of Stalins blood. But he is.

It's a weird paradox....since new Stalin statues are going up in Putins Russia, Putin obviously approves of whatever we call "Stalinist" politics.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 07:25 AM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,599,111 times
Reputation: 14048
Quote:
Originally Posted by J746NEW View Post
I lived in those times as well.
I remember the cold war and the propaganda fed to us at the time.
We were told to look at the Soviet Union as an example of Communism where everyone is poor with no worker unions to fight for them while the US had tons of unions at the time.

Now unions are evil and have been mostly killed off so the commies won.
Well, we more reasonable Americans look at Germany, Denmark and the like for a centered view on Labor Unions.

As I said in a former post, I'm not pimping the USA. If you go far enough down any "side" of politics, you end up at the same place.

The USA is quickly heading toward that "Oligarchy" thing that Russia already embraces. But enough of the population is being kept happy to prevent change.

It's like that frog you drop into cold water and then slightly heat up the water until a boil. He doesn't know it until it is too late.

The USA population has been fattened like Pigs and given Bread and Circus to calm them down (along with drugs of many type)......

This thread is about the USSR and Russia, tho.

No doubt the USA is going backwards now....but the question remains whether that will continue in the arc of history.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 10:16 AM
 
13,281 posts, read 7,821,407 times
Reputation: 2141
Default Stalin Loved Whose Stupidity Was

" Lysenko did not believe that genes or DNA existed, and only spoke about them to say that they did not exist. He instead believed that any body, once alive, obtained heredity. That meant that the entirety of the body was able to pass on the hereditary information of that organism, and was not dependent on a special element such as DNA or genes. That puzzled biologists at that time because it went against all established notions of heredity and inheritance. It also contradicted the Mendelian principles that most biologists had been using to base their ideas on. Most scientists believed that Lysenko's ideas were not credible, because they did not truly explain the mechanisms of inheritance. Many scientists and history of science writers believe[weasel words] that his beliefs are pseudo-scientific, and have little relationship to genetics.

Another of Lysenko's theories was that obtaining more milk from cows did not depend on their genetics, but on how they were treated. The better they were handled and taken care of, the more milk would be obtained. Given that belief, Lysenko and his followers were well known for taking very good care of their livestock. Lysenko claimed that the cuckoo was born when young birds such as warblers were fed hairy caterpillars by the parent (rather than host) birds; this claim failed to recognise that the cuckoos he described were brood parasites. Lysenkoites also believed that fertilization was not random, but that there was specific selection of the best mate. For reasons like these, Lysenkoism can be viewed as pseudo-scientific.

After World War II ended, Lysenko took an interest in the works of Olga Lepeshinskaya, an older feldsher and biologist, who claimed to be able to create cells from egg yolk and non-cellular matter. Lepeshinskaya recognized common ground between her ideas and Lysenko's. By combining both of their ideas it was possible to proclaim that cells could grow from non-cellular material, and that the predicted ratios of Mendelian genetics and meiosis were incorrect, thus undermining the basis of modern cytology, as well as genetics.

Consequences of Lysenkoism

Lysenko forced farmers to plant seeds very close together, since according to his "law of the life of species", plants from the same "class" never compete with one another. An article in The Atlantic suggests that Lysenko played active role in the famines that killed millions of Soviet people, and that Lysenko's practices prolonged and exacerbated the food shortages, but the arguments for this claim remain unclear. The Soviet Union's allies suffered under Lysenkoism, too. Communist China adopted his methods in the late 1950s and endured even bigger famines. Peasants were reduced to eating tree bark and bird droppings. At least 30 million died of starvation.

Outside the Soviet Union, scientists spoke critically: British biologist S. C. Harland lamented that Lysenko was "completely ignorant of the elementary principles of genetics and plant physiology" (Bertram Wolfe, 2017). Criticism from foreigners did not sit well with Lysenko, who loathed Western "bourgeois" scientists and denounced them as tools of imperialist oppressors. He especially detested the American-born practice of studying fruit flies, the workhorse of modern genetics. He called such geneticists "fly lovers and people haters".

Unable to silence Western critics, Lysenko tried to eliminate all dissent within the Soviet Union. Scientists who refused to renounce genetics found themselves at the mercy of the secret police. The lucky ones simply got dismissed from their posts and were left destitute. Hundreds if not thousands of others were rounded up and dumped into prisons or psychiatric hospitals. Several were sentenced to death as enemies of the state or starved in their jail cells (most notably the botanist Nikolai Vavilov).[citation needed] Before the 1930s, the Soviet Union had a strong genetics community. Lysenko gutted it, and by some accounts set Russian biology and agronomy back a half-century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

Mark Mora, like Trofim Lysenko, hates scientists (and smart janitors, too). He was able to reach Bloom's ear. Bloom's only
"research" was to advance the mink industry - until Russia collapsed.

Call me a lyre if you want.

Last edited by Hyperthetic; 03-30-2019 at 11:42 AM..
 
Old 03-30-2019, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,964 posts, read 13,212,563 times
Reputation: 19198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
I didn't say that.
I just said that all these stories about 100 million dead is complete nonsense and that many Russians do not consider Stalin a tyrant. Yes, there were sacrifices but they were necessary at the time. Was a power struggle and purge the ranks and under the rink got real enemies of the government and innocent people too.
I also didn't say 100 million, I just said millions meaning a number of million.

Whilst Russia fought bravely during WW2, and is recognised for this, some of the actions of Stalin were not so admirable.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 11:46 AM
 
13,281 posts, read 7,821,407 times
Reputation: 2141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
And I not dispute with this, but in those days many were not sinless.

And what do you say to that? Does Roosevelt fall under the definition of "blood tyrant" or not?

Internment of Japanese Americans
A lot of Germans look like Americans.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 12:12 PM
 
26,712 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9997
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
You missed the english in the post regarding this.

When we ask "Was something not part of the USSR?" - in spoken English that means we are making the statement that it WAS and asking for verification, which you provided.

I didn't "miss" anything, otherwise there would be no need for you to repeat what I've stated earlier.


Quote:
Ukraine was part of the USSR for certain! As to being part of "Russia", this is arguable depending on the particular part of history. As with parts of Poland and the Baltic Republics and Finland, etc. it came and went...or part of it came and went.
There is a difference you see, between "Poland and Baltic Republics" and Ukraine.

Number one - Kiev (now capital of Ukraine) was the first capital of Russia; Moscow originally was part of the principalities that were ruled from Kiev.

And number two - ( which is even more important) since it was KIEV that accepted Christianity as Eastern Orthodoxy ( Moscow only followed the initial choice) Ukrainians ( which were the leftovers of the original Kievan state ) ASKED Moscow Tzar for their protection from the CATHOLIC POLES, since their faith ( that was for obvious reasons same as of Moscow) has been suppressed.

And this is the reason why Ukraine joined Russia back in 1600ies, in spite of the initial reluctance of the then-ruling Tzar.

So nice attempt to muddy the waters, but these are facts yet again.


Quote:
"the territory was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but its territory was eventually split between Poland and the Russian Empire"
The ONLY reason "the territory was contested" between Russia and Catholic powers was because the two Westernmost provinces of Ukraine ( that were ruled by the same dynasty as Russia) pledged allegiance to the Catholic Church in Rome. ( Catholic Church overall was making attempts throughout history to claim Russia, but to no avail, just in case you are not aware of it.)

But these two Westernmost provinces WERE NOT part of the rest of Ukraine or Russia from that point on, i.e. from 1253 on.

Stalin adjoined these two provinces to Ukraine only in 1938from what I remember, and that's why they were culturally so different, stirring constant trouble until today.

And of course Poland ( or rather Catholic Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was constantly trying to encroach on Russian Orthodox lands, trying to claim them for Catholic Pope, MOSCOW THRONE including. And that's the reason why Russian Tzars decided to do away with Poland later on all together, when they had a chance.

But I suppose you didn't know all that, did you?

Quote:
I think what is relevant to modern discussions of Ukraine are these facts..and/or perceptions..

1. When the USSR Split, the former sat. state were told to "take what freedom they could handle".....in other words, invited to do their own thing.
Yes, with the "friendly help of Americans," who were *gently nudging* the former Soviet authorities to break the country apart, which was obviously going against cultural and most important - economic interests of the nation.



Quote:
2. Ukraine, as I remember, agreed to give up their nukes...for the promise they wouldn't be aggressed upon.
Look above in order to understand that the rest was not more than "monkey business."


Quote:
3. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, like many parts of the USSR, were "ethically cleansed" and "real" Russians paid to settle there. That's why it is laughable when currently people say "Oh, but take a vote - those people in Ukraine WANT to be with Russia".
Of course they do. They were settled there to take over!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced...e_Soviet_Union
"Eastern Ukraine" was PART OF SOUTHERN RUSSIA, not some "Ukraine" which didn't even exist back in time of the Tzarist Empire. After the revolution of 1917 Eastern Ukraine ( that was the industrialized region) petitioned to keep it within the borders of the Russian Republic, ( that's where it was assigned originally to, during the first few months,) but it was LENIN who insisted that this region should be included into "Ukrainian Republic," since otherwise this aforementioned "republic" wouldn't have had the industrial base at all, and wouldn't be able to exist as "republic."

Now what was that about the "ethnic cleansing" again?
 
Old 03-30-2019, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,964 posts, read 13,212,563 times
Reputation: 19198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
And I not dispute with this, but in those days many were not sinless.

And what do you say to that? Does Roosevelt fall under the definition of "blood tyrant" or not?

Internment of Japanese Americans
I think it's slightly different introducing internment in relation to a country you are actually at war with, and it's different to your iwn citizens.

Many of those imprisoned in Stalin's Soviet Union were intellectuals and political prisoners and anyone deemed an enemy of communism.

Stalin even had engineers and doctors imprisoned, the type of people nations rely upon for their economic and social well being.

Lots of countries have done lots of things in the past that were wrong, including the US, UK and many other countries, however that doesn't mean what Stalin did can ever be excused.

I jusy wish Russia would stop all of this nonsense under Putin and open itself up to the world, in order that sanctions can be lifted and Russia can trade with us.

No one dislikes the Russian people, and we would like better relations, however until Putin finally goes this sadly seems unlikely.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 01:00 PM
 
3,237 posts, read 2,372,055 times
Reputation: 1387
Do not forget that USSR was a multi-ethnic state and only about 50% of the USSR's population were ethnic Russians (at the same time eg in an other large "communist" country of China more than 90% of population were and are the ethnic Chinese). Peoples of USSR with their own republics did not feel themselves free as the rights of the republics were in fact limited. Gorbachev's era glasnost brought freedom of speech and people in Baltics began to speak about the sovereignty of their republics. The further ahead the republics, especially the Baltic republics, started to demand the separation from the USSR. There was the USSR's referendum in March 1991 yes, but after the August 1991 coup attempt the Baltic republics parted. Possible there was a domino effect that happened in the fall and late autumn of 1991 and led to the Belavezha Accords in December 1991. Somewhat interestingly the accords were signed by the leaders of three East Slavic republics (and eg not by non-Slavic Kazakhstan, Georgia, Moldova and others what were left in the USSR in December of 1991).
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