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I don't really care one way or the other what they choose for themselves. I think it's a silly, immature fad to label themselves though, or to feel that they need to be supported or supportive of each other.
What's the difference between men going their own way and women going their own way? I personally know plenty of WGTOW who've been doing their own independent thing for the past 40 or 50 years but they never slapped a silly label like that on themselves to draw attention to their choices and personal lifestyles.
There are men who've been doing it for a lot longer than that, centuries in fact, they just didn't make a big issue about it decades or centuries ago, nor slap a label on themselves either, the way these young men into this labeling fad today are doing now. I guess these young MGTOWs today must not know much about history and maybe they think they are somehow special??? I don't know why they think labeling themselves as MGTOWs, as a particular group, is going to set them apart from all the other MGTOWs over the past few centuries. It's not like it's anything new, it's not some kind of big deal.
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Nobody creates and labels a movement without the intent to recruit.
In this case, misery loves company.
The more people they can convince that they are right, the less bad they feel about their lot in life.
I must have missed something .... when was a law passed that said men are required to partner or face the consequences?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I was thinking the same.
I dont recall a time when there were not bachelors or that bachelors were seen in a bad light (as opposed to spinster)
There isn't a law for either men or women that says we have to partner up. But I do think that there can be social stigmas that people feel. That there is this sort of cultural script, especially in more traditional families, that you are "supposed to" grow up, find someone and marry and have a family and all that. In the case of your mainstream het male thing, it's reinforced by media showing endlessly the narrative that if you are a success, you have a woman. "Hero gets the girl" and all that. So I think a lot of guys who struggle in their love lives, feel this sting that they are somehow marked in a cosmic, biological way, as a failure. That they have been judged and found wanting.
If they never find someone to form a family with, it's just that. If they had a long term relationship that ended, well...many people consider anything shy of "death do us part" as a "failed" relationship.
So I think that movements that help people to feel valid as human beings without the "partner" box being checked, well that's great. Just let go the bitterness and anger, or you aren't really living your best life, in my opinion. It's like the guy who has been sober with AA for decades who never stops talking about the good ol' days when he got "wasted." At some point, you've got to move on and let go of what is holding you back.
And for heaven's sakes, the thing that the men in these movements do, of projecting their stuff all over everyone... We have a poster that I struggle not to argue with every time. I salute him for pursuing life and happiness on his own terms, and the dude is able to respect women enough for friendships and such. But he feels 100% certain that every marriage is made up of a terrifying female tyrant who is there to stomp every spark of joy out of a man, and the man cowering in the corner lest he wind up in the "doghouse." And forever with the "evolutionary biology" blather. It's just...not reality. It's a caricature of a small slice of reality for some people maybe. But not what millions of perfectly happy couples are doing.
There isn't a law for either men or women that says we have to partner up. But I do think that there can be social stigmas that people feel. That there is this sort of cultural script, especially in more traditional families, that you are "supposed to" grow up, find someone and marry and have a family and all that. In the case of your mainstream het male thing, it's reinforced by media showing endlessly the narrative that if you are a success, you have a woman. "Hero gets the girl" and all that. So I think a lot of guys who struggle in their love lives, feel this sting that they are somehow marked in a cosmic, biological way, as a failure. That they have been judged and found wanting.
If they never find someone to form a family with, it's just that. If they had a long term relationship that ended, well...many people consider anything shy of "death do us part" as a "failed" relationship.
Oh good grief there have been this and that social stigmas since time immortal. Sure some traditionalist and/or more religious people think pairing up, getting married and having kids is the be all end all. Big flip. There are all kinds of relationships in our society including no relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
So I think that movements that help people to feel valid as human beings without the "partner" box being checked, well that's great. Just let go the bitterness and anger, or you aren't really living your best life, in my opinion. It's like the guy who has been sober with AA for decades who never stops talking about the good ol' days when he got "wasted." At some point, you've got to move on and let go of what is holding you back.
And for heaven's sakes, the thing that the men in these movements do, of projecting their stuff all over everyone... We have a poster that I struggle not to argue with every time. I salute him for pursuing life and happiness on his own terms, and the dude is able to respect women enough for friendships and such. But he feels 100% certain that every marriage is made up of a terrifying female tyrant who is there to stomp every spark of joy out of a man, and the man cowering in the corner lest he wind up in the "doghouse." And forever with the "evolutionary biology" blather. It's just...not reality. It's a caricature of a small slice of reality for some people maybe. But not what millions of perfectly happy couples are doing.
I agree with everything else you have been saying. If people need a support group and it helps with their insecurities, pain, whatever, that's fine. If it helps change attitudes or laws even better. I'm all for men's groups that actually are supportive in a positive way and help tackle some social and relationship issues.
Totally agree they need to let the bitterness and anger go. One can not move forward dragging that load. The same is true for fringe radical feminist groups.
To both groups I say go in peace.
Oh good grief there have been this and that social stigmas since time immortal. Sure some traditionalist and/or more religious people think pairing up, getting married and having kids is the be all end all. Big flip. There are all kinds of relationships in our society including no relationship.
I agree with everything else you have been saying. If people need a support group and it helps with their insecurities, pain, whatever, that's fine. If it helps change attitudes or laws even better. I'm all for men's groups that actually are supportive in a positive way and help tackle some social and relationship issues.
Totally agree they need to let the bitterness and anger go. One can not move forward dragging that load. The same is true for fringe radical feminist groups.
To both groups I say go in peace.
You and I feel "Big flip" about it. But I can be compassionate to those whose feelings run deeper on the subject. And I do think there is validity to one's suffering if they always truly wanted something and were never able to make it work out. And definitely when it comes to societal brainwashing that makes one feel personally devalued.
I mean seriously though, look at men who follow a whole life path just to impress women. Rock stars who did it for the women, our culture really links a man's value to his success with women, very strongly.
I would liken it...in terms of self-worth ideology...to the pervasiveness that women have to be a certain kind of "beautiful."
And both of these things also have in common, that they make the indoctrinated American citizen, into an easily biddable consumer slave. Work hard, make lots of money, get a fancy car, pay for a gym membership, impress women. Buy, buy, buy. What's that? You're a few pounds to heavy for that bikini? Definitely buy our weight loss plan! These shoes will make your legs and behind look good! Not quite satisfied with any aspect of your looks? There are thousands of companies right there, happy to sell you some lotions and potions, sure to make you the belle of the ball! You can't leave the house looking like THAT after all...
Insecure, suffering people are fantastic for corporate profits. Our culture works really hard to keep us that way. Men and women both.
I just wish that some did not need to believe that there is only one right way to live and they are doing it. That's the root of my aggravation with MGTOW, even in its most benign manifestations. "I'm living my own life for my own happiness, and not making it revolve around a woman!" ~AWESOME!~ "All of you married guys are losers, conned by the Evil Wimminz into a state of gelded domestic slavery! All women will eventually divorce you and take half, or more! Hypergamy and Chad!" Stop.... If it were just limited to a personal philosophy without spilling over into judging other people, then they might just be onto something.
You and I feel "Big flip" about it. But I can be compassionate to those whose feelings run deeper on the subject. And I do think there is validity to one's suffering if they always truly wanted something and were never able to make it work out. And definitely when it comes to societal brainwashing that makes one feel personally devalued.
I mean seriously though, look at men who follow a whole life path just to impress women. Rock stars who did it for the women, our culture really links a man's value to his success with women, very strongly.
I would liken it...in terms of self-worth ideology...to the pervasiveness that women have to be a certain kind of "beautiful."
And both of these things also have in common, that they make the indoctrinated American citizen, into an easily biddable consumer slave. Work hard, make lots of money, get a fancy car, pay for a gym membership, impress women. Buy, buy, buy. What's that? You're a few pounds to heavy for that bikini? Definitely buy our weight loss plan! These shoes will make your legs and behind look good! Not quite satisfied with any aspect of your looks? There are thousands of companies right there, happy to sell you some lotions and potions, sure to make you the belle of the ball! You can't leave the house looking like THAT after all...
Insecure, suffering people are fantastic for corporate profits. Our culture works really hard to keep us that way. Men and women both.
I just wish that some did not need to believe that there is only one right way to live and they are doing it. That's the root of my aggravation with MGTOW, even in its most benign manifestations. "I'm living my own life for my own happiness, and not making it revolve around a woman!" ~AWESOME!~ "All of you married guys are losers, conned by the Evil Wimminz into a state of gelded domestic slavery! All women will eventually divorce you and take half, or more! Hypergamy and Chad!" Stop.... If it were just limited to a personal philosophy without spilling over into judging other people, then they might just be onto something.
I agree with you. Your just a better person than I.
Having been on the wrong side of social norms I'm more in camp suck it up buttercup who cares what others think. I do empathize but I dont see MGTOW as a support group.
The issue is fairly simple. Those who have made bad choices in their love lives are gonna be sour about it.
I know a lot of such people. Maybe the majority...as indicated by the poll.
Crying over spilt milk. The same guys probably would rally against paying wages to stay-at-home moms and dads. But then they will act as if they, as the breadwinner, should have some "rights" not afforded to their mates.
Such people should use professional escort services instead of enjoying family life. You know, like the POTUS does.
Me? I believe in family values, promises, etc. and don't like the idea of "fair weather friends".
there are too many sexually frustrated, angry, young males with little prospect of finding mates. I think the mgtow movement encompasses these men along with mentally and emotionally unstable men who vent their frustrations by verbally attacking the sex that has collectively rejected them. Not sure what to do about these young men, however. women can't be forced to have sex with them nor can the men be forced to get help for mental and emotional issues.
Dildonics. virtual reality, dolls, orgasmatrons, Etc.
Or, they could obtain better parenting, ethics and morals and realize that life is about responsibilities.
It’s interesting to read how a man defines what makes other men attractive to women, and it strikes me as a bit odd that when women chime in about what they really find most attractive about their mates, and it doesn’t comply with those assumptions, women are disbelieved. I’ve been attracted to very few men in my life, and only one such that I wanted it to go longer than a couple of dates. I married him. Now, let me be clear that I most certainly do not wish to portray my husband as unattractive, but he did not tick the boxes of what most would define as movie star looks (and neither did I, btw). He was twenty and losing his hair and a bit chubby around the middle. Nonetheless, I fell head over heels, and even thirty-some years later, I still think he’s the tops!
It's bizarre. In my younger years, I remember being in conversations with men bemoaning that they couldn't "get" a "good" woman. The women in the conversation would tell the moaner what he could do that would make him more attractive to women. (Learn to dance was a frequent one - anyone can do that.) He'd totally discount what the women were telling him.
I wonder why any sentient man would think that ignoring what a woman thinks would make her heart go pitter-patter.
Ten to one a big reason why you think your husband is tops is because he listens to you. Congratulations on finding him!
I think this is yet another very bad outcome from an overly feminized culture. we have lost our collective minds. we have gone stupid. thank you left for ruining everything.
True, but the men that are MGTOW do not want to have to listen to what women are saying. That seems to be the heart of their dispute, that women actually expect them to modify their behavior to be better partners and improve their relationships. They object to that feedback, because they are manly men and women just don't understand that boys will be boys. Instead of acting like rational adults, they would rather tap out of society and blame the whole thing on someone else. It is a movement designed to normalize toddler behaviors in adult men and they expect us to have sympathy for them. They are mostly upset that women no longer have to tolerate their toxic masculinity and are taking a pass on men like them in favor of men that are willing to update their idea of gender roles within a relationship.
Exactly. These men are "going their own way" because women already up and went a few decades ago. Women no longer need to sit around and wait for a man to come along and take care of them, so they are much pickier in choosing a mate. The MGTOW guys are what we used to call male chauvinists. They are terrified of strong women, but unfortunately for them, the Stepford Wives of old are getting fewer and further between.
It's a good thing that these misogynists are taking themselves out of the gene pool. Their offspring will not be missed in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
I think this is yet another very bad outcome from an overly feminized culture. we have lost our collective minds. we have gone stupid. thank you left for ruining everything.
Yes, I can see how women who can think for themselves would be intimidating to you.
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