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This is hilariously sad.
It's like the idiot who's told that he's fired, and then starts shouting that he quits.
Or the moron who got dumped, and tries to say it was Mutual.
Or the guy who asks out a girl, gets turned down, and then says 'you're fat and ugly, I would never be with you anyway.'
MGOTW are free to do whatever they please (except be with a quality woman), but they're not going to fool anyone into believing their stupid claims.
A man who doesn't want a relationship, doesn't have relationships, and they enjoy the freedom of being single. They don't go and form support groups, try and convince anyone of their reasoning, or attempt to put down women. Ugly trolls do that.
Solution: Marry whoever you want. Or don't. No one cares.
It really seems to me like the most vocal of these groups just really, really want someone to care. Like Cartman in the South Park episode where he isn't really suicidal but can't stand other people getting attention, so he sings a whole song to the whole school begging them to stop him from killing himself.
"We are going our own way!"
Alright. Go.
"No really! We're going now!"
OK. Bye!
"You're going to miss us when we're gone our own way!"
We won't. I promise.
"You're gonna be sorry, old and alone, wondering where all the nice guys/good men have gone!"
Nope! There's one right over there.
"You...you...you THOTs!!"
Why are you still here...? I thought you were...going...somewhere...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230
About 10 years ago, when I first ran across MGTOW, I at first thought it was just a socio-cultural proclamation - fighting back against social stigma of refusing to have a wife, kids, and perhaps by implication abandoning mainstream definitions of "normal behavior" and "respect-worthy person" in general - and doing just that: going their own way in the face value sense of the term. On that basis, I even proclaimed myself a MGTOW - for a little while.
But then it turned into a lot (not all, of course but a lot) of men spewing disgust toward at least the majority of women. The divorce law part, a legitimate topic, however debatable (i.e. perhaps the law in some respects doesn't reflect the best way to do things in the 21st century. To repeat, an appropriate debate topic, regardless of which side you fall on). The off the rails railing about "95 to 99% of women being this [outrageous adjective here]", I could not stomach. I even tried to reason with them. Finally, I just gave up and rejected any further association with them.
So yes, I'm still a (all-lower-case) mgtow - I reject mainstream conventional ways of "normal" and "abnormal", "respect-worthy" and "disrespect-worthy", and sometimes even "moral" and "immoral"; and live my life as I see fit as long as it doesn't hurt or degrade others. If that means rejecting the all-American picture-perfect ideal of polished-looking family, house in the suburbs, and being respectable to the mainstream - then so be it (I deep down never understood mainstream way of sizing up the worth of activities, lives, and personal worth; and found the polite [or even fairly impolite] ways hypocritical anyway). So I say Effit! And I've become happier for it.
IMO, that's more truly mgtow than anything MGTOW proclaims (at the risk of committing a No True Scotsman Fallacy).
Now this. THIS right here. I could give you a standing ovation for this. This is why I refused to vote on this thread's poll. The philosophy that you embraced is one I think is brilliant and valid and wonderful for anyone and everyone. Write your own script! Build your life to suit your needs! Tell society where it can stick its cultural norms!
The thing you encountered and turned away from...yeah, not so much. Rejecting society's cultural norms SHOULD result in a person finding their own authentic path to happiness, without feeling forced into some cookie-cutter, white-picket-fence suburban nightmare. It shouldn't be about getting all angry that other people (women) are not getting with some program you think you need in order to be ok.
Breaking out of the mold = good.
Trying to force other people to stay in the mold and getting mad when they won't = futile and not good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Then you need to pair with a woman who agrees to be the breadwinner while you agree to be a stay at home parent. Or find a surrogate and raise your kid as a single parent.
The courts favor women in custody because women are the ones who care for their child.
When we see more fathers taking an active roll in parenting from birth courts will have no choice but to treat custody differently. This means sacrificing income for flexibility. Equally taking time off work for sickness and appointments, adjusting or reducing hours to take kids to/from school/daycare. Being the ones who stay up with a sick child, meet with teachers, go to activities, feed them, teach them, take them shopping, etc. etc. The things you actually see few fathers doing although it is becoming more and more common.
Definitely. My ex and I took a year to try and sort out the terms of our divorce before I moved out. He often rants about how he wishes he had kicked me out of the house, until I remind him that he was unemployed and needed my help to keep paying for the house at that time, so... And he rants about how he wishes he'd taken the kids from me, but the fact is, he didn't want the work of parenting them. Even when he was not working and I was, being expected to put effort into the household and raising his sons was enough to drive him into depression and rage. He could not handle being a parent and he did not want to figure it out. The things he says, are just "I wish I could have made you suffer!" Because he makes himself suffer, profoundly, always did and always will. He hates knowing that I have a happy life now.
But not only did I not ask for, nor get, alimony... We carefully structured our divorce so that no matter who the kids lived with, no one had a legal child support obligation. All along, since I've had them with me, it's been "if you can contribute, it is appreciated. Do what you can." The most that has ever been, is 30% of the actual real costs of the boys' needs. At most. It's often less. I keep meticulous records, because I'm a data nerd, so I know this. When we divorced, I took almost all the debt, and left him with excellent credit. Even though I helped pay the back child support and student loans he came to our marriage burdened with, and I was only 18 then. He got the house, I was honestly grateful to wash my hands of it, but it's the only possible asset of serious value we really had. He rented it to some people he knows, who have trashed it. He's determined to ruin his own life, so that he can point at me and say that I ruined his life.
He's the only person I know in real life who is involved with these "angry men on the internet" ideologies. But ya know, he wasn't better when he had everything...some people are just determined to be miserable. About whatever.
But as someone who was involved in an actual divorce, I did not see any kind of woman-bias or favoritism. That's for sure. The court was willing to accept whatever we came up with, so long as we agreed...and beyond that, they put the kids first, and then fairness next. And personally, I wanted to give him every advantage, because I know his own nature will be a handicap for him, I didn't need to add more to his inevitable struggles.
While I find modern feminism to be annoying, the MGTOW crowd is guilty of a lot of the same things. Blaming the opposite sex for all the worlds problems. Most of the people who are devoted to modern feminism or MGTOW principles are annoying and full of misinformation detailing how unfair life has been for them because the other sex is so mean, bad, etc.
I don't support or reject MGTOW, but another thing is that whenever there is an accepted establishment dogma or specific belief there will be some pushback from those who fall "outside" the lines of the mainstream in society.
MGOTW are free to do whatever they please (except be with a quality woman), but they're not going to fool anyone into believing their stupid claims.
The point of MGTOW, is that there are very few good women left, and it is nearly impossible to differentiate the good ones from the bad ones(because the bad ones lie and deceive). So it is better to just not have anything to do with women at all. Even a short relationship with a dishonest woman might end up costing you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if you don't pay, you go to jail.
It makes more sense to just jerk it to porn and play video games.
The point of MGTOW, is that there are very few good women left, and it is nearly impossible to differentiate the good ones from the bad ones(because the bad ones lie and deceive). So it is better to just not have anything to do with women at all. Even a short relationship with a dishonest woman might end up costing you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if you don't pay, you go to jail.
It makes more sense to just jerk it to porn and play video games.
I understand the concept....but this concept assumes that those making the judgement are somehow decent human beings.
Sex itself is only a small part of the equation. When Mr. MGTOW contracts a terrible disease and slowly declines, who is going to be there to make sure he lives and dies in dignity?
If Mr. MGTOW is such a fine human specimen, isn't he making the problem worse by not breeding and creating more like himself?
I must admit I voted wrong in this poll. Of course I support the "rights" of selfish people to be selfish. As long as they pay their taxes and do the basics for society (maybe a bit of volunteer work, etc.) it's all good.
The point of MGTOW, is that there are very few good women left, and it is nearly impossible to differentiate the good ones from the bad ones(because the bad ones lie and deceive). So it is better to just not have anything to do with women at all. Even a short relationship with a dishonest woman might end up costing you tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. And if you don't pay, you go to jail.
It makes more sense to just jerk it to porn and play video games.
For gosh sakes, how do manage to function in general life? Guess what? Men deceive too, sales people, bosses, friends..... if they exist, they can deceive you. That's why as mature adults we learn to be patient with people and see what they are really made of. That's how I eliminated lots of guys I dated I am certainly not unique, this revolutionary new process of learning about a person has been named "dating."
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If Mr. MGTOW is such a fine human specimen, isn't he making the problem worse by not breeding and creating more like himself?
It reminds me of the end of the movie "The Fifth Element", where Leeloo is dying after being shot, but they need her to save the universe from destruction. And she ponders whether life is worth saving at all.
Thomas Jefferson had also wondered if god had "given us life in mercy or in wrath". Schopenhauer believed that the world could not have been created by a loving god, but was rather the work of the devil.
In the movie, she decides to save the universe, but only because she decides that love is worth saving. Presumably then, life without love is not worth saving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
I must admit I voted wrong in this poll. Of course I support the "rights" of selfish people to be selfish. As long as they pay their taxes and do the basics for society (maybe a bit of volunteer work, etc.) it's all good.
I refuse to do anything. Why would I? I owe you nothing.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 04-19-2019 at 09:32 PM..
For gosh sakes, how do manage to function in general life? Guess what? Men deceive too, sales people, bosses, friends..... if they exist, they can deceive you.
The ramifications for being deceived by a woman are a million times greater than being deceived by a friend. And being deceived in the case of business, is often illegal, and if the damage is great, you can sue. There is nothing comparable when it comes to a woman(if not the opposite).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43
That's why as mature adults we learn to be patient with people and see what they are really made of. That's how I eliminated lots of guys I dated I am certainly not unique, this revolutionary new process of learning about a person has been named "dating."
I think the primary complaint among many men, is that the overall quality of women has declined. It is the same argument that the older generations tend to make about younger generations. Are millennials different than their grandparents and great-grandparents? Are they better or worse?
As for dating, most of it is luck. Women can hide their true nature for months or even years. And if you haven't found a good woman by 30, there is nothing left worth having.
But I really don't want to make this a man vs woman fight. I realize that the women are in the same boat. And the good women are often entranced with dishonest men, and become damaged-goods.
Ironically, most of my original views about relationships, were derived from a thought-experiment about my mother. I thought very-highly of my mother, and I believe she was basically taken-advantage of by "bad men". And I was trying to imagine how to redesign the social-rules, where you could almost-guarantee that a good woman would marry a good man.
Though this was a somewhat-selfish thought-experiment, being that it came from a time when I was really depressed and feeling sorry for myself for my less-than-perfect life. I felt that, had my mother made better decisions, I would have had a better life. Of course, so would have she.
Craigiri had brought up arranged-marriages earlier in this thread, which was one of my original "solutions" to the bad-relationship dilemma. Arranged doesn't mean "forced" btw, but something more akin to "parent-approved".
Last edited by Redshadowz; 04-19-2019 at 09:31 PM..
The nerve of those women. How dare they express their opinions! Why aren't they in the kitchen, quietly fixing dinner for their husbands, like all good women do, and keeping their opinions to themselves?
If they're the kind of men you just described above, who are against women sharing their opinions, then good riddance.
Yep. They can't get a woman, precisely because they think of women as second class citizens, so of course instead of looking to their own behavior they blame women. The truth is that today, the majority of women are not attracted to Neanderthals. Go figure.
Then you have the other side of the coin from MGTOW...namely the millions of noxious (and obnoxious) women like this point in case above who scare all the decent men away instantaneously and insist that is must be the rest of the world that is the problem.
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