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We are talking about the law. And the law requires legal definitions. Where you and I disagree begins with the definition of people.
And when you go off with this, your hyperbole weakens your arguments overall.
Once you concede that rape and incest are by definition non-consensual sex and you allow for abortion under those circumstances, you must next concede that a non-interference policy is the only one that applies the law fairly as whether or not a woman reports those actions to a third party is her business and not anyone else's.
We are talking about 2 different things. I am not talking about law. I am talking about what is right and what is wrong.
You believe the law is absolute. And that killing someone because you feel like it is OK because the law says it is.
If abortion law were overturned and it was made illegal tomorrow: Would you be for or against abortion? It's illegal now.
We are talking about 2 different things. I am not talking about law. I am talking about what is right and what is wrong.
You believe the law is absolute. And that killing someone because you feel like it is OK because the law says it is.
If abortion law were overturned and it was made illegal tomorrow: Would you be for or against abortion? It's illegal now.
What's your opinion?
My opinion is that my opinion doesn't matter when the matter is Not My Business. My personal beliefs about the metaphysics of the unborn are well out of the ordinary, with my opinions about right and wrong different from yours.
I am not for abortion. I am for the choice to be left up to the person who is personally involved. I don't believe that a zygote nor an embryo nor a fetus is yet a person, as you do. Abortions are extremely rare after the first trimester and the reasons for them is Not My Business. I don't seek to impose my beliefs on others.
Whether you agree or not, the political debate hinges on the power of the minority to infringe upon the rights of the majority. The law and the definitions it requires are the subject of the debate.
You still haven't said why you believe that YOUR definition of someone is the version that must be enacted into law. Or do you not really care about whether or not abortion is legal? Maybe you just prefer to ridicule people who see things differently than you do to pass the time.
Many people do not believe that abortion is a right. It only became a defacto right in 1973, from Roe V. Wade. But the Constitution had been around for nearly 200 years before that, and the government's position prior to 1973 was that abortion was not a right.
"In the 18th century and until about 1880, abortions were allowed under common law and widely practiced. They were illegal only after 'quickening,' the highly subjective term used to describe when pregnant women could feel the fetus moving, Reagan said.
'At conception and the earliest stage of pregnancy, before quickening, no one believed that a human life existed; not even the Catholic Church took this view,'
Reagan wrote. 'Rather, the popular ethic regarding abortion and common law were grounded in the female experience of their own bodies.'"
newtovenice, you and I generally agree on the vaccination and liberty issues on freedom for bodily rights. We disagree on this one. If a pregnant woman cannot be vaccinated to insure her unborn doesn't get some disease, how can you say that she doesn't have the right to do with her body as she chooses and have an abortion? Right to no vaccinations, but no right to not be an incubator for 9 months against her will?
My husband's Aunt's abortion in the 1950's. What used to be called "change of life pregnancy". Thought she had finished menopause and stopped using birth control. In her 40's and her husband in his 50's and just diagnosed with cancer. She not only was a mother to two grown children but a 2 year old grandson. They did not want to raise another child at their age. She paid her OB/GYN (hello, Suzy Q) who delivered her two daughters, to say she had a heart condition which a pregnancy would endanger her life. Therapeutic Abortion. I had a long talk with her in my young adulthood. She said to me she would have have sold her house to pay for an abortion. When I talked to her, she said to me that adoption was out of the question because she did not want this child coming looking for her in her old age, in a wheelchair, and in a nursing home. Her husband died LONG before this would ever happen.
When I talked to hubs Aunt a good 40 years ago about this, she said to me "LEARN from my experience, you young women." "Do NOT let them ever take your choice away".
I'm not talking about legal or religious. So if law said you could kill 2 people a month with your car, you'd say hey WHAT A GREAT LAW!!! I really like it! Killing people becasue I feel like it is so cool that even the govt says it's OK.
Or would you say: I don't want to kill anyone and I don't think other people should either. Because it's WRONG.
I'm talking about doing what is RIGHT.
You're missing the point again. You have a definition of a person; someone else has a different definition. You have one definition of right; someone else has a different definition.
Quote:
People have lost their ability to what is right and what is wrong because they are so dependent on authority to TELL them what to believe. Think for yourself. Know what is right and wrong ... because it is right or wrong, not because someone is telling you.
And killing someone because you feel like it is WRONG.
Yet you're perfectly comfortable telling someone else what is right and what is wrong. Isn't that the definition of "hypocritical"?
You would be very wrong if you think out of wedlock pregnancies were virtually nonexistent prior to the industrial revolution. People didn’t not have sex because there wasn’t abortion. They had sex they still got pregnant and women aborted. They either did it themselves or went to a back alley many of them died. There were large cities before the industrial revolution as well as tiny rural towns. Abortions have been around since sex.
We are debating time-frames here. But historically, only about 2-10% of the population ever lived in what we would call a "city" prior to the industrial-revolution.
Cities began to grow slightly earlier during the Late-Middle Ages and the colonial era, and of course during the Roman Empire there were many large cities. But during "The Dark Ages", London had a population of between 10,000 and 20,000.
The vast-majority of the people for thousands of years have been peasant farmers living in rural areas. And even if 10% or more of the peasants had sex before marriage, if the woman got pregnant, they would get married. And once married, they almost never got divorced.
I never denied that there weren't abortions prior to the industrial-revolution. Only that they were far fewer than there are today. And they were illegal after the first-trimester. And they were primarily isolated to certain classes of people, such as prostitutes or courtesans, or at the very least the kinds of people who might live in the cities. I don't think the peasants were running the preindustrial version of planned parenthood.
And not only did abortion exist in the past, but in many places infanticide was common. But does that mean infanticide should be legal? After Roe v. Wade the number of abortions per year jumped ten-fold. The most-immediate cause of abortion, is the existence of cities. Because cities drastically change the nature of people's lives.
Yes you are confused on many things. You can’t seem to focus on the point, only try to ignore it. It takes two and I’m talking about men right now. Men should make using birth control a priority. Most don’t. If they did there would be less abortions plain and simple. It has nothing to do with a woman refusing sex if unprotected. Men should step up, if they were pro active making sure they didn’t get a woman pregnant, as much as they want to bed her. Unwanted pregnancy would go down great.
It isn’t black and white as you seem to think there are lots of solutions to unwanted pregnancy and abortions. Men in great numbers taking responsibility before they have sex by using birth control themselves would go a long long way
People like newtovencie who feel birth control is ultimately up to the woman are part of the reason so many men feel they don't need to step up. How many men think just like her?.....when there is an unplanned pregnancy, when all is said and done, it is the woman's fault.
Instead of trying to change that kind of thinking, here she is perpetuating it.
My opinion is that my opinion doesn't matter when the matter is Not My Business. My personal beliefs about the metaphysics of the unborn are well out of the ordinary, with my opinions about right and wrong different from yours.
I am not for abortion. I am for the choice to be left up to the person who is personally involved. I don't believe that a zygote nor an embryo nor a fetus is yet a person, as you do. Abortions are extremely rare after the first trimester and the reasons for them is Not My Business. I don't seek to impose my beliefs on others.
Whether you agree or not, the political debate hinges on the power of the minority to infringe upon the rights of the majority. The law and the definitions it requires are the subject of the debate.
You still haven't said why you believe that YOUR definition of someone is the version that must be enacted into law. Or do you not really care about whether or not abortion is legal? Maybe you just prefer to ridicule people who see things differently than you do to pass the time.
There is no majority. Polls have been trending an almost 50/50 split between prolife and prochoice.
Abortions are NOT extremely rare after first trimester. In fact it's about 10% of all abortions. And doctors are frequently off the mark as far as development of babies, so I would guess it's probably more than that.
My question is again: Since so many are wedded to the fact that legal = good and that seems to be their only argument ...
suppose tomorrow abortion is illegal?
Is abortion *suddenly* bad?
Do people suddenly change their position because of the law?
Did they think abortion was bad when it WAS illegal?
There was a group of people called slaves that were deemed 3/5 a person. Doe the fact that they were called slaves mean that yes, they were automatically 3/5 of a person?
My belief is simple: It is wrong to kill someone because you feel like it. Tell what you find offensive about that statement.
Yet they never want to look at pictures of an actual aborted baby. At 10 weeks, you can see the little hand and fingers. It's quite clear it's a baby.
Or the developmental stages of a baby in the womb.
It's weird. They are so proud of it yet scared of it at the same time. Like they don't want to face the actual truth.
You know those procedures where the doctor gives you your tooth or appendix in a jar or shows you what was removed? That should be part of the abortion. The should see the bits of "tissue" or "mass" that was removed. The arms, legs, fingers, toes, spine. Should be no problem with that, right?
Well, no. They don't even want to see the ultrasound. What other "medical" procedure is there, where a doctor does NOT show you a scan, ultrasound, or Xray or video of what's being removed?
I can't think of one.
NO, it isn't. At 10 weeks the fetus of any number of animals could be mistaken for human by the untrained eye.
So, the presence of arms, legs, fingers, toes and spine hardly make that organism a "someone".
You look at it as a "baby" because that is what you want to see.
If I didn't want to risk my very life to carry a pregnancy, didn't want a child, when I looked at it I would see a very ugly, unwanted parasite to be gotten rid of, the sooner the better.....an unwanted growth that could threaten my health and my life.
You can't force me to see what you see let alone force me to nurture and take care of it.
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