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Bet that "pro-lifer" isn't signed up to be a living donor, not THAT pro-life. Imagine how many children's lives could be saved if every pro-lifer walked their talk and signed up to be a living donor.....[b]a kidney, a piece of liver, some bone marrow. What? Too selfish to go through a little inconvenience to save a child's life?
I am not permitted to donate organs, regardless of whether I am dead or alive.
Science describes an area of knowledge, typically about something in the physical world, that can be explained in terms of scientific observation or the scientific method. The scientific method is a discovery process that has evolved over several hundred years and can be summarized as follows:
a phenomenon in the physical world is observed
an explanation, or hypothesis, for the phenomenon is formed
the hypothesis is tested by means of objective, reproducible experiments
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I wish you both the best of luck with that.
I give up, because I really don't know where you're going with this. You keep talking about science - exactly what is it science is supposed to be telling us? If you're trying to point out that science tells us that a fetus is a human baby, you're just being obtuse. It's a fetus - a clump of cells, just like a clump of cancer cells or a wart. At the time most abortions take place, a fetus is no more a human at that point than a wart is. It has no sentience. It can't feel pain. That's according to science.
Your "point" depends on a lot of ifs. If the fetus continues to develop, if the woman doesn't have a spontaneous abortion, if this and if that, then maybe a baby will be born. As Mr. Scott said, "If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon." If means there's a possibility, nothing more. But until the fetus has developed into a baby, it's still not a baby. It's a fetus. According. To. Science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minethatbird
I am not permitted to donate organs, regardless of whether I am dead or alive.
Unless you have some medical reason not to, you can show yourself as an organ donor on your DL in case you're killed in an accident. I have that on my license. If something happens to me, I want someone else to benefit from my organs if they can.
I could also go in for kidney scanning to see if I'm a match to anyone who needs a kidney. I don't because I have kidney damage. What's stopping you?
I am not permitted to donate organs, regardless of whether I am dead or alive.
You are the minority.
If all pro-lifers who were capable would sign up to be living donors, there wouldn't be shortage.
Pro-lifers who would be all up in a woman's face if she was considering an abortion, would turn their backs on that same woman if her 3 year old needed a piece of their liver or some of their bone marrow to stay alive.
That speaks volumes and proves that for pro-lifers, it is not about saving children's lives, it is all about controlling and punishing women.
The abortion debate really comes down to "personhood".
Is a fetus a person? If they are a person then they have rights, just like everyone else. And one of those rights, is life.
This constant insistence by the left that that the debate over abortion is only about control, and so if government can make abortion illegal, then it would have the power to force women to have abortions against their will, is a complete perversion of reality.
It is impossible to go from "unborn babies are people and ought to be protected by law", to "women should be forced to abort their babies".
It is precisely those in favor of abortion who are the eugenicists. They are the ones who place society above individuals. And the motto of every abortionist is exactly the same as the socialists, "The greatest good for the greatest number."
Their presupposition is either that the mother's life is more-important than the fetus' life, that both the mother and child would actually be better-off if the baby was aborted(in the extreme case that the pregnancy could kill her and/or the baby), or that society is better off if unwanted or unhealthy children are aborted.
The first is evil. The third is less evil but still an evil. The second is the only basis on which abortion can be morally-justified.
And let me add, this notion that liberals are opposed to control is utterly ridiculous. Leftists are not only tyrants, they are moral-tyrants. They have no problem whatsoever with using government to enforce their version of morality. They merely call it "justice" and shove it down everyone's throats.
The problem is that the full grown adult (or teen) woman also has rights (more rights for much of the pregnancy). And the fetus relies on her body to survive, at least to a point. The rights conflict. If a woman's health is in danger, she should be allowed to not continue the pregnancy. She shouldn't have to die for a fetus. If her health isn't in danger and she chooses to not continue a pregnancy for her own reasons, she shouldn't have to carry a baby to term and give birth. Processes that are extremely hard on her body and potentially dangerous. Her body. Her choice.
Women carry babies. That's just a fact of life. Birth control exists, and fails, fact of life. Rape is a thing, fact of life. It's also a fact of life that everyone has bodily autonomy, and it is perfectly reasonable to choose the live person when resolving that conflict, rather than an unborn fetus. To let the live person choose herself. To let the only one of the two capable of making a choice make a choice. To choose an unborn fetus that has no independent thought, awareness, or life experiences over a woman, when that decision is making her carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, something that can kill her at the worst or cause her injury or change her body for the rest of her life, and to change her life, is to not care about women.
Abortion is a medical procedure. It involves a woman and her doctor. The government should only get involved to ensure they can happen safely and there are regulations in place, like other medical practices are regulated to ensure health and safety.
It is no one else's business whether a woman gets an abortion or why. Has no bearing on anyone else, except arguably the father. One other person on Earth. Anyone pretending to care about "the unborn" is lying imo. It's really about pushing their personal (often religious) beliefs onto others. They also often seem to want to punish women for having sex, which they often assume was unprotected, yet often have nothing to say to men who contribute 50% to the pregnancy.
Btw if men could be pregnant, abortion wouldn't even be a debate. As if all the men on this site wouldn't want an abortion if their lives were in danger or if they were unable for any reason, or simply unwilling because they don't want to, to care for a baby. Men imo shouldn't even have an opinion on abortion because they cannot possibly understand what women go through, worrying about avoiding pregnancy, worrying about being assaulted, worrying about the state of the law on abortion in some states. Men are incapable of understanding, on a biological, the most basic, level. With how many dads abandon their kids or are deadbeats, please. Many men would 100% get abortions if they were/could be in positions too. The BS "save the unborn, women are sluts" talk would go right out the effing window.
Last edited by JerseyGirl415; 05-03-2019 at 05:52 PM..
The problem is that the full grown adult (or teen) woman also has rights (more rights for much of the pregnancy). And the fetus relies on her body to survive, at least to a point. The rights conflict. If a woman's health is in danger, she should be allowed to not continue the pregnancy. She shouldn't have to die for a fetus. If her health isn't in danger and she chooses to not continue a pregnancy for her own reasons, she shouldn't have to carry a baby to term and give birth. Processes that are extremely hard on her body and potentially dangerous. Her body. Her choice.
Women carry babies. That's just a fact of life. Birth control exists, and fails, fact of life. Rape is a thing, fact of life. It's also a fact of life that everyone has bodily autonomy, and it is perfectly reasonable to choose the live person when resolving that conflict, rather than an unborn fetus. To let the live person choose herself. To let the only one of the two capable of making a choice make a choice. To choose an unborn fetus that has no independent thought, awareness, or life experiences over a woman, when that decision is making her carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, something that can kill her at the worst or cause her injury or change her body for the rest of her life, and to change her life, is to not care about women.
Abortion is a medical procedure. It involves a woman and her doctor. The government should only get involved to ensure they can happen safely and there are regulations in place, like other medical practices are regulated to ensure health and safety.
It is no one else's business whether a woman gets an abortion or why. Has no bearing on anyone else, except arguably the father. One other person on Earth. Anyone pretending to care about "the unborn" is lying imo. It's really about pushing their personal (often religious) beliefs onto others. They also often seem to want to punish women for having sex, which they often assume was unprotected, yet often have nothing to say to men who contribute 50% to the pregnancy.
Btw if men could be pregnant, abortion wouldn't even be a debate. As if all the men on this site wouldn't want an abortion if their lives were in danger or if they were unable for any reason, or simply unwilling because they don't want to, to care for a baby. Men imo shouldn't even have an opinion on abortion because they cannot possibly understand what women go through, worrying about avoiding pregnancy, worrying about being assaulted, worrying about the state of the law on abortion in some states. Men are incapable of understanding, on a biological, the most basic, level. With how many dads abandon their kids or are deadbeats, please. Many men would 100% get abortions if they were/could be in positions too. The BS "save the unborn, women are sluts" talk would go right out the effing window.
Thanks, Jersey Girl. You nailed it in your response to RedShadowz's far from persuasive comments. But then I value and respect a woman's opinion on abortion more so than a man's. This is because a man can deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancies he helped cause by simply walking away from it. A woman can't do that. Unwanted pregnancies and abortion are extremely personal issues for women. So I don't think it's makes much practical sense to divide it as a right vs. left issue. It's basically about individual freedom and allowing the female to decide which route to go is best under her own set of circumstances in life. People who want abortion banned should consider what they are trying to put off on society is the practice of abortion gone out of control from being set free from all regulations.
Last edited by StillwaterTownie; 05-03-2019 at 11:39 PM..
Not many people bring this up, because it can have unsettling implications, but abortion is about the rights of the fetus too...but the pro-lifers tend to ignore some aspects of those rights.
Organisms developing in the womb can't choose whether they want to exist or not. The only people knowledgeable enough to do that are adults. Living is not automatically the most ideal route for the would-be person. Human adults aren't always the best at deciding whether or not existence or non-existence is the best fate...but if we just say "abortion is always unfair to the fetus," that's just being delusional, or intellectually lazy.
I agree with the pro-lifers when they claim that the rights of the unborn matter. That's why abortion needs to be legal.
To choose an unborn fetus that has no independent thought, awareness, or life experiences over a woman, when that decision is making her carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, something that can kill her at the worst or cause her injury or change her body for the rest of her life, and to change her life, is to not care about women.
In the case that the woman will die if she carries the baby, I am in favor of abortion, because that is in-effect a death-sentence for both the baby and herself.
But if you remove threats to life, then it is you who is declaring that one life is more-valuable than another. That you can sacrifice one person's life if they are perceived as a burden or inconvenience. And for what? So the woman doesn't fear becoming less-attractive?
The essence of "good" is that which is unselfish. Thus good is generosity, patience, sacrifice, kindness, and love. And the essence of "bad" or "evil" is selfishness. All things which are evil are selfish.
Is abortion a selfish or unselfish act? Is life sacred?
There are certainly times when the motives of a woman to abort the baby could be considered "selfless". I am in fact an "anti-natalist", so I have an incredibly-negative view of life, and see it as mostly a misery. So if a woman was actually concerned for the life and happiness of the child, she would get incredible sympathy from me.
But that is almost never the case. These abortion activists are almost-always terrible people. They are some of the most-selfish people you will ever meet in your life. They place themselves first in every situation and refuse to sacrifice anything. A group of hedonists and degenerates who lack humility and respect. All while they pretend to be morally-superior, and make endless excuses for their selfishness. "Birth control fails, you can't expect people to be celibate", "The world isn't the same as it used to be", "I was drunk", etc.
Being an anti-natalist, I am against pregnancy entirely. I will NEVER have children. Even the one girl I ever had sex with, I was very cautious, and after I broke up with her, I swore I would never date again, and I haven't(in fact I wish I was still a virgin).
I want people to become better people. I want the world to be better. But not only does abortion not improve morality, it is a way of avoiding the consequences for your selfishness and irresponsibility, while carrying-out another selfish act. Abortion, with minor exceptions, makes society worse, makes people worse, makes women worse, makes life worse, because its effects go far beyond the woman having the abortion.
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