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Baloney. No straw man. It was just done in New York. And I don’t know if this is pure, deliberate dishonesty... or just ingrained reflex, as it seems to be the common tactic of liberals across the board, and used in every debate ..... Nobody is trying to take your guns, (except those at the forefront of the anti-2nd Amendment crowd trying to take the guns) .... Nobody is trying to remove all regulations on abortion (except those at the forefront of the “pro-choice” movement who are striving to do EXACTLY that). And the New York bill did exactly that. You folks seem to be incapable of honesty, either in regard to your own intentions, or of the causes you promote, or in the reality that is actually taking place.
But let’s be REAL CLEAR HERE .... since the 1973, 61+ MILLION ABORTIONS were performed just in the UNITED STATES, with almost 2 Billion performed worldwide during that timeframe, or the equivalent of 6 times the entire population of the US.
You really trying to sell this claim that these astronomical numbers don’t effect society?
Look, if you miss my fertilized egg that was the size of an average menstrual clot, then life must be hard for you. But no, women terminating pregnancies doesn't negatively affect society.
I disagree 100%. I know many people that had very harsh upbringings and none of them wish they were dead instead.
Fine. When it’s your choice, don’t abort. See how simple that is? When it’s your choice, you get to choose. When it’s someone else then it’s MYOB time.
Why people want to give away the right to bodily autonomy is mystifying. Are you going to be ok when the government decides to force you to do or not do something with your body? I doubt it.
I'm pro-choice but I'm not an idiot. There is always a level of morality and being able to survive outside the womb is an off limits position. Currently States are starting to allow "abortion on demand" without limits (9 months +) and that's why the push back on the other side is hitting back hard. Don't act shocked by it.
12 weeks. You have all the freedoms and all the choices and all the body autonomy in the universe before that. Celibacy, BC, morning after pill, abortion pill, surgical abortion. After 12 weeks you need to accept it as human woman who's body is made to do exactly what it's doing in order to continue the species. It's not something that happened to you, it's the choices you made all along the way so suck it up, learn from it.
I'm pro-choice but I'm not an idiot. There is always a level of morality and being able to survive outside the womb is an off limits position. Currently States are starting to allow "abortion on demand" without limits (9 months +) and that's why the push back on the other side is hitting back hard. Don't act shocked by it.
12 weeks. You have all the freedoms and all the choices and all the body autonomy in the universe before that. Celibacy, BC, morning after pill, abortion pill, surgical abortion. After 12 weeks you need to accept it as human woman who's body is made to do exactly what it's doing in order to continue the species. It's not something that happened to you, it's the choices you made all along the way so suck it up, learn from it.
Wrong. You’ve fallen for the hype of the anti choicers. No state allows abortion in the 3rd trimester except in cases where the mother's health is at risk or it’s a non viable fetus. There are few of these cases every year. Only 3 doctors do these abortions in the entire country and it’s very expensive. Do you support abortion in these rare cases?
There are NO states that allow late term abortions just because the mother failed to act in a timely manner.
Since I detect a greater level of thoughtfulness and open mindedness on your part, compared to some of the more dogmatic types here ... and speaking to paragraph 1 .... consider this ...
Is it not possible that there is a greater plan in the works, than that conceived by the individual? A greater purpose to a pregnancy, which may have been at play in defeating the efforts to prevent it? Or maybe it’s as simple as being just another test of our personal choices, if indeed we are all on a spiritual journey of learning in this schoolhouse we mistake as nothing other than physical existence? And, is it not possible that none of us are capable of seeing the “big picture”, or how our choices and decisions shape that picture that we cannot now see?
As for the last statement .... what would be a greater demonstration of love .... to love under ideal circumstances, or to love in spite of challenges? Would you be more comforted to know your mate loves you only when life is running smoothly, and the sun shines brightly? Or, would you hope that love carries you through times of difficulty, or prevails in the face of temptation?
And finally ... is there a more natural, more powerful, more selfless form of love, than the unconditional love of a Mother? Certainly, if fear or self love prevails over that, the “big picture” won’t be as pretty as it could be.
No, I don't personally believe there's a "greater plan in the works."
Regarding "loving despite challenges vs loving in ideal circumstances," I just don't think that applies here. No parent wants their teenage daughter to become pregnant just so she can have a baby to love in challenging circumstances. And no woman should be forced to do so. Ideal = best, by definition.
And all the spiritual journey stuff, that sounds very personal and certainly is not a belief everyone holds.
I appreciate your respectful reply, but I still think that, in the big picture, if a woman is going to have, say, 2 babies total in her lifetime, it's better that they come when they are wanted and able to be provided for, and let all the other eggs (and maybe an embryo that came about by accident) not turn into unwanted people.
It sounds like it comes down to whether you think there's truly a meaningful difference between preventing fertilization in the first place (which no BC does 100% of the time), versus stopping growth within an allowable period of time after fertilization accidentally occurs. (which, as has been mentioned in some posts today, even some BC works after fertilization has occurred, further muddying the waters of this conversation).
Wrong. You’ve fallen for the hype of the anti choicers. No state allows abortion in the 3rd trimester except in cases where the mother's health is at risk or it’s a non viable fetus. There are few of these cases every year. Only 3 doctors do these abortions in the entire country and it’s very expensive. Do you support abortion in these rare cases?
There are NO states that allow late term abortions just because the mother failed to act in a timely manner.
You keep posting things like this. In effect, if we aren't the exact same kind of pro-choicer that you are, you attack. "Falling for the hype?" Wait, I thought you said women are intelligent and can make good choices. But if we disagree with you on how legislation should be worded, we're stupid enough that we fell for the hype?
I don't understand why the language isnt tightened up. For example, in states that allow euthanasia, there are safeguards written into the legislation to prevent abuse by unscrupulous doctors.
You keep saying there are only 3 doctors that perform late term abortions. Well, that could certainly change. You don't think its one bit possible that somewhere, some day, unethical doctors might do late term abortions to make money? Or that there could never, ever be a woman who decides late in her pregnancy that she doesn't want to continue and deliver after all? Sure those might be very rare, but you can't just say "we dont need a law to cover that" because you think it won't ever happen. If everyone always did the thing that is right and reasonable, we wouldn't need laws at all. Why are you so opposed to safeguards being built into the language? Are you actually opposed to late term abortions?
88% is the averaged survival rate for all births between 23 and 33 weeks. Below is the table of rates by lengthy of pregnancy. Notice there’s no survivability through the 22nd week.
You keep posting things like this. In effect, if we aren't the exact same kind of pro-choicer that you are, you attack. "Falling for the hype?" Wait, I thought you said women are intelligent and can make good choices. But if we disagree with you on how legislation should be worded, we're stupid enough that we fell for the hype?
I don't understand why the language isnt tightened up. For example, in states that allow euthanasia, there are safeguards written into the legislation to prevent abuse by unscrupulous doctors.
You keep saying there are only 3 doctors that perform late term abortions. Well, that could certainly change. You don't think its one bit possible that somewhere, some day, unethical doctors might do late term abortions to make money? Or that there could never, ever be a woman who decides late in her pregnancy that she doesn't want to continue and deliver after all? Sure those might be very rare, but you can't just say "we dont need a law to cover that" because you think it won't ever happen. If everyone always did the thing that is right and reasonable, we wouldn't need laws at all. Why are you so opposed to safeguards being built into the language? Are you actually opposed to late term abortions?
I’m absolutely opposed to late term abortions unless the mother’s life is at risk or the fetus is non viable. But I’m also opposed to the bills coming out of Alabama etc that basically ban abortion not to mention ban the most effective forms of birth control as well.
12 weeks is too early as a cutoff. There are states where there’s 1 abortion clinic. Wait times are considerable. There are people who lack transportation or the money to easily afford the procedure that need time to work out their issues. And then there are those like me who bled at regular intervals (just like a period) all through the first trimester with one of my kids. Quite the surprise when I missed my period and found out I was already in the 2nd trimester.
I’m absolutely opposed to late term abortions unless the mother’s life is at risk or the fetus is non viable. But I’m also opposed to the bills coming out of Alabama etc that basically ban abortion not to mention ban the most effective forms of birth control as well.
12 weeks is too early as a cutoff. There are states where there’s 1 abortion clinic. Wait times are considerable. There are people who lack transportation or the money to easily afford the procedure that need time to work out their issues. And then there are those like me who bled at regular intervals (just like a period) all through the first trimester with one of my kids. Quite the surprise when I missed my period and found out I was already in the 2nd trimester.
Ok, maybe we agree more than it sounded like. I do have concerns about the *possibility* of "health of the woman" being applied too broadly late term, since it can include emotional health. Maybe I'm just not even clear on how/why a woman's emotional health could be such that the only possible remedy would be a late term abortion. Sounds like it could be abused.
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