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Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony
Oh I'm really sorry about that! What is it that cause the gender dysphoria exactly? I tried reading on it, but I don't understand why a person would be so unsatisfied with the gender they are given. What causes it?
But I did some research and I read in this article:
That one of the causes of gender dysphoria, is homosexuality, and it's easier for homosexual people to pass as trans to accept their feelings more. It also says on the page, that the trans population has went way up compared to the cysgender homosexual population, so is it possible then, that most of the causes of it, is because of being more comfortable with homosexuality?
I'm not sure about that. My family member was married at the time she finally came out, and they stayed together. She had no interest in men, so I guess she would have been a lesbian technically
Oh okay, and I don't know a lot about it, just trying to understand what the cause of it is. But I thought that psychotherapy would most likely be a better option than surgery, cause going through a gender change surgery like that, seems like it could cause all sort of other potential problems, and seems like such an extreme solution, but that is just is just from my perspective.
Would you deny treatment to everyone who is transgender because some will change their minds? Obviously it would be great if there were a way to reliably separate those who will persist in their transgender identity and those who will not, but who is to say that some will not have their lives "ruined" by not transitioning?
I would say that if it saves lives the go for it. Just realize that some who were not suicidal will become suicidal. Some people will ruin their lives chasing "the fix" only to realize it made them even more miserable. So while yes it does help some cope with their dysphoria, it is not for all gender dysphoric people. Short version: Use responsible and try to be sure that it's actually going to be helpful, otherwise don't do it.
Quote:
I am not sure that Heyer was ever transgender. He talks about his grandmother putting him in a purple dress at age four, but he never says he asked to wear the dress. He also mentions a list of psychiatric conditions that he appears to blame on treatment of transgenderism. I stopped listening at that point.
The evidence says that suicidality is a function of the way transgender people are treated, not the transgenderism itself. Transgender adults are discriminated against and risk physical abuse. They are murdered for being transgender. There is a poster here who admits taking part in such abuse.
"A staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide compared to 1.6% of the general population, with rates rising for those who lost a job due to bias (55%), were harassed/bullied in school (51%), had low household income, or were the victim of physical assault (61%) or sexual assault (64%)."
Far be it from me to tell Walt Heyer what he did or did not experience, but you're jumping to a lot of conclusions without knowing the whole story. His grandmother dressing him up like a girl and telling him he was a beautiful girl may have been a beginning to self-discovery or what he thought was self-discovery. You and I are in no position to judge the man.
As to the suicidality and always heaping it all on being mistreated, there are plenty of horribly mistreated people in the world. No demographic on this planet today -- even people living in constant threat of massive genocide -- commit suicide at such alarming rates. For example, this study took a long-term view and found the following:
Quote:
Results
The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
Conclusions
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
That isn't really an outlier. I've never seen any study that indicates that gender reassignment alone reduces suicide rates to anything remotely resembling acceptable levels. I've yet to see anything that has pushed suicidality down to anything any sane person could call acceptable, including gender dysphoric people being completely accepted by family, friends, etc. If it all comes down to bullying and people being mean to them, it just doesn't add up. There's more going on with these people and it's a disservice to just give them facial reconstructive surgery, chop of their bits, slap on something resembling the opposite sex organs and call it a day. Until these people aren't killing themselves and many times the rate of the rest of humanity, I am still going to say the same thing: Not good enough. Not nearly good enough. People are dying. We have to do better.
Now you have mischaracterized my position significantly. I don't tend to be on anyone's side. I tend to think for myself and don't really care if I'm on a "side" all by myself. I am not actually against the idea of a transgender going through the transition process to whatever degree they see fit -- as long as it really helps of course. I will call them by the new pronouns if that's what they wish. I just see the obvious: we're missing many levels of understanding gender dysphoria. Politically Correct culture, though well meaning, is standing in the way of actually digging deeper. "Just shut up and accept these wonderful people exactly how they are!" becomes a maxim for not digging any deeper and not asking more questions. I can't agree with doing that.
Oh okay, and I don't know a lot about it, just trying to understand what the cause of it is. But I thought that psychotherapy would most likely be a better option than surgery, cause going through a gender change surgery like that, seems like it could cause all sort of other potential problems, and seems like such an extreme solution, but that is just is just from my perspective.
Not all folks whom consider themselves transgender desire gender reassignment surgery. Therapists, those that are competent, are extremely careful about this subject with their patients. But you do understand, I hope, that the role of a therapist is not to "switch" their client from one thing to another. In the lesbian and gay community people are committing suicide because they "failed" in "conversion therapy".
I would say that if it saves lives the go for it. Just realize that some who were not suicidal will become suicidal. Some people will ruin their lives chasing "the fix" only to realize it made them even more miserable. So while yes it does help some cope with their dysphoria, it is not for all gender dysphoric people. Short version: Use responsible and try to be sure that it's actually going to be helpful, otherwise don't do it.
Far be it from me to tell Walt Heyer what he did or did not experience, but you're jumping to a lot of conclusions without knowing the whole story. His grandmother dressing him up like a girl and telling him he was a beautiful girl may have been a beginning to self-discovery or what he thought was self-discovery. You and I are in no position to judge the man.
As to the suicidality and always heaping it all on being mistreated, there are plenty of horribly mistreated people in the world. No demographic on this planet today -- even people living in constant threat of massive genocide -- commit suicide at such alarming rates. For example, this study took a long-term view and found the following:
That isn't really an outlier. I've never seen any study that indicates that gender reassignment alone reduces suicide rates to anything remotely resembling acceptable levels. I've yet to see anything that has pushed suicidality down to anything any sane person could call acceptable, including gender dysphoric people being completely accepted by family, friends, etc. If it all comes down to bullying and people being mean to them, it just doesn't add up. There's more going on with these people and it's a disservice to just give them facial reconstructive surgery, chop of their bits, slap on something resembling the opposite sex organs and call it a day. Until these people aren't killing themselves and many times the rate of the rest of humanity, I am still going to say the same thing: Not good enough. Not nearly good enough. People are dying. We have to do better.
Now you have mischaracterized my position significantly. I don't tend to be on anyone's side. I tend to think for myself and don't really care if I'm on a "side" all by myself. I am not actually against the idea of a transgender going through the transition process to whatever degree they see fit -- as long as it really helps of course. I will call them by the new pronouns if that's what they wish. I just see the obvious: we're missing many levels of understanding gender dysphoria. Politically Correct culture, though well meaning, is standing in the way of actually digging deeper. "Just shut up and accept these wonderful people exactly how they are!" becomes a maxim for not digging any deeper and not asking more questions. I can't agree with doing that.
I am not judging Heyer. I do not know enough about him to do that. I just did not get the impression from what he said that he was a child who declared at age four that he was a girl, not a boy.
Do not be so quick to dismiss suicidality related to genocide. It happens. There are people who would rather take their own lives than have someone else take them.
Unless the transgender person presents well enough not to be identified as transgender, why would you expect surgery itself to prevent the discrimination and maltreatment directed toward them? Keep in mind that not all opt for surgery.
I am puzzled by how you think I have mischaracterized your position. I certainly did not mean to imply that you are among those here who cannot bring themselves to spare an iota of compassion for anyone who is transgender. On the contrary, it is obvious that you have spent the effort to research the topic. I do think it is possible to accept transgender people for who they are while trying to dig deeper and ask more questions. I do not think we should just force them back into the closet, and if they are never offered treatment then no one will ever get the data needed to show what helps and what doesn't.
Transgenderism is a form of mental illness but, it has a sane solution in that they should not be denigrated for their feelings.
However, the dudes-with-boobs that demand 99.9% of society conform to -them- is one of the highest forms of narcissistic sociopathy, which is a severe and incurable mental illness.
Anyone who wants to change their genetic sex assignment needs help. Turning your Kaka into an innie, or your whoha into an outtie is extreme
They need real help and compassion
How is that different from other cosmetic surgeries? Say boob jobs, nose jobs, or face lifts in which a person wants to look 20 years younger than they are? The person still wants to look like someone they aren't. What about makeup? Fake nails? Hair dyes, extensions, or implants? Shaving their heads? Bodybuilders? If you consider it, all these individuals are attempting to look "unnatural," like someone they would not be normally. The only difference is amount of alterations. The person is still dissatisfied with themselves. People don't view these other individuals getting these cosmetic surgeries or other appearance enhancements as crazy.
First, I don't care a single bit about transgender individuals. If I saw one on the street, and I'm sure I have I would smile and say hi to them just like any other person. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were at a market and there was a plus 6' individual, dressed like Marilyn Monroe and was pulling off the female role pretty good, until one got up close. This person was selling homemade jams....under the business name of "trans jams"...I thought it was very clever , and even told them the play on words was great. We even bought a jar. It's all good. With all that said though, you will never get me to change my mind that ,that individual was anything other than a man dressed and acting like a woman. Whether it is a mental issue, biological, etc I don't know but if treatment (therapy, drugs or surgery) is required to keep an individual out of depression, or to feel "normal" then there is an issue.
For all those that are defending transsexualism, and for those that have stated "gender is a social construct" let me ask you this. If you are a heterosexual male would you date, have sex with or marry a transgender woman (born male) ? Same question for the heterosexual women, would you date, have sex with or marry a transgender man (born female) ?
First, I don't care a single bit about transgender individuals. If I saw one on the street, and I'm sure I have I would smile and say hi to them just like any other person. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were at a market and there was a plus 6' individual, dressed like Marilyn Monroe and was pulling off the female role pretty good, until one got up close. This person was selling homemade jams....under the business name of "trans jams"...I thought it was very clever , and even told them the play on words was great. We even bought a jar. It's all good. With all that said though, you will never get me to change my mind that ,that individual was anything other than a man dressed and acting like a woman. Whether it is a mental issue, biological, etc I don't know but if treatment (therapy, drugs or surgery) is required to keep an individual out of depression, or to feel "normal" then there is an issue.
For all those that are defending transsexualism, and for those that have stated "gender is a social construct" let me ask you this. If you are a heterosexual male would you date, have sex with or marry a transgender woman (born male) ? Same question for the heterosexual women, would you date, have sex with or marry a transgender man (born female) ?
Your story of your family is wonderful, boneyard. I mean it.
Thank you texan2yankee. I dont mean to pick on you. I normally pretty much agree with you or can at least see your point. This topic is a bit touchy for me given how I used to mistreat these people. You might say that I feel like I have a lot to make up for.
The 1 think that I have learned is that good people come in all packages, shapes and sizes. Some force us to revisit what we call acceptable. Thats a good thing.
The transgenders that I know are for the most part good people. Wounded to be sure. They fear dark streets and hostile crowds.
They just want to live their lives.
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