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That would be the textbook and generally accepted definition among economists and political scientists: 'collective ownership of the means of production.' My only caveat is that in practice 'collective' invariably means 'government.' I suspect OP can offer 2 or 3 short-lived examples where 'collective' did not necessarily translate to 'government.' The overwhelming majority, from the old USSR to Cuba to Venezuela, did.
You used the word "collective" (which as you pointed out, really means government), but the OP used the word "workers". That's the key difference.
You used the word "collective" (which as you pointed out, really means government), but the OP used the word "workers". That's the key difference.
All well and good; at least you do know the definition, unlike most Americans. I would argue that 'collective' vs 'government' vs. 'workers' is just semantics.
All well and good; at least you do know the definition, unlike most Americans. I would argue that 'collective' vs 'government' vs. 'workers' is just semantics.
I actually disagree with this point. This is my venn diagram view of those categories.
I won't argue about "collective" vs "government" in this context, but I believe the use of the word "workers" here is intentionally disingenuous. Because, in reality, the people doing the actual work have no control over the means of production in socialism.
Thanks for your link; I scanned it but don't see any money quotes where the writer confirms her interpretation of Sanders' beliefs. I think Sanders fuzzes the difference between 'socialism' and 'social democracy' (the Scandi model) for propaganda reasons.
Sanders has been in this game for a long time, and I refuse to believe that he is just ignorant of the difference. The Danish PM famously upbraided him for repeatedly referencing Denmark as 'socialist.' Bernie knows exactly what he's doing. He continues to use the label 'socialist' because that is what he really believes.
Sanders has been in this game for a long time, and I refuse to believe that he is just ignorant of the difference. The Danish PM famously upbraided him for repeatedly referencing Denmark as 'socialist.' Bernie knows exactly what he's doing. He continues to use the label 'socialist' because that is what he really believes.
I suspect he uses it as a tactic to leapfrog any accusations that he is a "socialist". Maybe because there is a political party called "Democrat" that maybe somehow a "social democrat" would be interpreted by most voters as a "socialist Democrat"?
I actually disagree with this point. This is my venn diagram view of those categories.
I won't argue about "collective" vs "government" in this context, but I believe the use of the word "workers" here is intentionally disingenuous. Because, in reality, the people doing the actual work have no control over the means of production in socialism.
I've told the commie that started this thread to quit their 9-5 and go get in to a trade that pays based upon productivity.
Like flat rate auto technician. Or piece rate construction.
When they get out there in reality and have to self fund 10s of thousands to 100s of thousands of dollars of tools to simply maintain their career... they will change their tune real quick when they get a job that doesn't pay well and can't knock it out fast enough to break even or profit from...
I suspect he uses it as a tactic to leapfrog any accusations that he is a "socialist". Maybe because there is a political party called "Democrat" that maybe somehow a "social democrat" would be interpreted by most voters as a "socialist Democrat"?
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