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A question for the pro-reparations gang here. How much of the reparations tab do you expect the UK, France, and Spain to cover? The US inherited many French and Spanish slaves when territories formerly held by France and Spain became part of the US. The US didn't exist until 1789, slaves in the former colonies in the period prior to 1776 being under English jurisdiction, and the interim 1776 - 1789 window being sort of a free for all as to who was in charge. Or do you expect the US taxpayers to cover what England, France, and Spain did?
Your lack of intellectual integrity killed my argument, with you, before I ever made it. I know there does not exist an argument that you will accept....so stop acting like you were being persuaded....until I made the statement that you put in bold....bold.
Lets see.....does people coming back from a war alive, with no physical or mental wounds mean that those who did not have only themselves to blame? Does the fact that people escaped the Twin Towers during 911 mean that they were more determined, hard working, intelligent and driven than the people who died? Does the fact that some Jews escaped Hitlers persecution, during the Holocaust, mean that those who did not were somehow less motivated, smart, driven, etc?
Your argument is just silly...and that is being nice. Just because some people survive against the odds is not a discrediting of those who don't. Such silly thinking would assume that EVERYONE has the same experience, in degree and kind, as well as same abilities, in degree and kind. That is not intelligent reasoning. The fact that some blacks succeeded after enduring slavery does not mean that all other former slaves had the same situation that those who survived did. Some may have done it by "passing for white", as to be black back then meant the one drop rule, meaning a person could look white...while labeled black because they were known to have black antecedents. I would imagine many Jews "made it" the same way....by "passing" as non-Jewish....since Judaism is not a race....but a choice of religion. Keep in mind we are talking about "European Jews".
That having been said....I guess the fact that I do not look at Jewish people as some superior humans....that means that I hate them. I don't look at Jews any differently than I look at white people in general. Jews are white people to me. No better or no worse. No more superior and no more inferior. My point is and always has been that if you expose any group of humans, in mass, to a certain condition, they will basically respond the same, with a slight margin of error. If blacks had the Jewish experience, we would be in the condition Jews are in. If blacks had the white experience, we would be in the condition of whites. If whites or Jews experience the condition of blacks, they would be in the situation of blacks today.
What people like you want to promote is the idea that whites, Jews or whoever, had they experienced what blacks have, would be in a superior condition than blacks are today and not need to look to the government. In fact, you basically have said this. The only way that your "theory" can be rationalized is if the premise is that BLACKS ARE INFERIOR to Jews, Whites and others. It's plain to see that such is required to reach your conclusions. Again, there is a term for that belief. Despite walking like a duck, quacking like a duck and looking like a duck.....you don't like being labeled as a duck.
You've got some nerve accusing me of being racist when YOU proudly claimed how much respect you have for Farakkan's anti-Semitic organization! How can you respect such a bigot?
The rest of your argument is ridiculous. If blacks would cut the out-of-wedlock rate in half, you'd see major improvements in all areas of success - educational attainment, income, and net worth - in a single generation.
Your lack of intellectual integrity killed my argument, with you, before I ever made it. I know there does not exist an argument that you will accept....so stop acting like you were being persuaded....until I made the statement that you put in bold....bold.
Lets see.....does people coming back from a war alive, with no physical or mental wounds mean that those who did not have only themselves to blame? Does the fact that people escaped the Twin Towers during 911 mean that they were more determined, hard working, intelligent and driven than the people who died? Does the fact that some Jews escaped Hitlers persecution, during the Holocaust, mean that those who did not were somehow less motivated, smart, driven, etc?
Your argument is just silly...and that is being nice. Just because some people survive against the odds is not a discrediting of those who don't. Such silly thinking would assume that EVERYONE has the same experience, in degree and kind, as well as same abilities, in degree and kind. That is not intelligent reasoning. The fact that some blacks succeeded after enduring slavery does not mean that all other former slaves had the same situation that those who survived did. Some may have done it by "passing for white", as to be black back then meant the one drop rule, meaning a person could look white...while labeled black because they were known to have black antecedents. I would imagine many Jews "made it" the same way....by "passing" as non-Jewish....since Judaism is not a race....but a choice of religion. Keep in mind we are talking about "European Jews".
That having been said....I guess the fact that I do not look at Jewish people as some superior humans....that means that I hate them. I don't look at Jews any differently than I look at white people in general. Jews are white people to me. No better or no worse. No more superior and no more inferior. My point is and always has been that if you expose any group of humans, in mass, to a certain condition, they will basically respond the same, with a slight margin of error. If blacks had the Jewish experience, we would be in the condition Jews are in. If blacks had the white experience, we would be in the condition of whites. If whites or Jews experience the condition of blacks, they would be in the situation of blacks today.
What people like you want to promote is the idea that whites, Jews or whoever, had they experienced what blacks have, would be in a superior condition than blacks are today and not need to look to the government. In fact, you basically have said this. The only way that your "theory" can be rationalized is if the premise is that BLACKS ARE INFERIOR to Jews, Whites and others. It's plain to see that such is required to reach your conclusions. Again, there is a term for that belief. Despite walking like a duck, quacking like a duck and looking like a duck.....you don't like being labeled as a duck.
Let's go with your way.
If Jews were slaves for 400 years... Hmm, wait, they were slaves in Egypt for 400 years...
Never mind.
Let's move forward.
How are we fixing the problem? Money? You know very well that the money will go to golden chains and golden teeth.
So, you say that it's irreparable?
Yes...via epigenetics...but not only by that means of transmission, but also by what is transmitted via being raised by traumatized parents. What does that teach the children? What types of behaviors are learned from people who have been traumatized and does that behavior, in mass, become "culture", when the trauma last over centuries?
Right, but we basically already know all that. Its common knowledge for example, that people raised by alcoholics are at higher risk to drink problematically themselves or marry someone who does. Ditto people raised by abusers or who watch one of their parents be abused.
We don't do much with that knowledge now......even for white people.....so not sure where that would go.
Then there's the problem of practical solutions. Is a population that will not/cannot avail themselves of whats available to them now to escape poverty going to avail themselves of a solution that will likely end up being some form of mental health treatment?
Booker has no shot. He checks the Black box, but that's it. He needs to either be Gay, and/or Female. He checks the KOOK box, but they all do, so that's not a differentiator.
He can self-identify as a gay female. Obama gave him permission. For my part, I self-identify and a transgendered Labrador Retriever.
So...every single person who has ancestors who were slaves gets some type of reparation? IOW, I, as someone who is 1/8 black, gets reparations? My grandkids, who are 1/32 black, also get something? After all, up until recent times, in Louisiana, if one was 1/32 black, their race was listed as "black" on their birth certificates.
Reparations, in any form, is nothing but a huge nightmare. At some point, it has to be decided where to draw the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mash123
Let's go with your way.
If Jews were slaves for 400 years... Hmm, wait, they were slaves in Egypt for 400 years...
I learned from reading the Passover Hagaddah that my ancestors were enslaved in Egypt. No person emancipated. We crossed the Red Sea to get out. The pursuing Egyptians had not taken their swimming lessons very seriously. Fast forward to 1896. My great-grandfather fled forced re-enrollment in the Czar's Army (a form of slavery) in Kiev. He and Lena were on the first ship out, to Montreal, thence (presumably) by train to NYC and then Yonkers. And to answer Mash123's post. isn't the Old Testament the story of self-made generation of wealth and education, rising from slavery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
My Dad, who recently passed, was 1/4 black. When I once asked him what he thought about reparations, he was totally against it. He managed to lift himself out of poverty at a time when affirmative action didn't exist. When he was in high school and looking for a part-time job, he had to endure hearing "We don't hire Puerto Ricans". He didn't let that stop him and kept on searching until he found a job. During WWII, he joined the Navy and saw action on D-Day. After the war, he went to college on the GI Bill, then had a successful white collar job with the federal government. His story isn't unique. Other minorities found their way out of poverty, too.
No GI Bill, no help for my ancestors. Since your Dad served our country, I don't begrudge him for the GI bill.
And condolences on your recent loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biker53
A question for the pro-reparations gang here. How much of the reparations tab do you expect the UK, France, and Spain to cover? The US inherited many French and Spanish slaves when territories formerly held by France and Spain became part of the US. The US didn't exist until 1789, slaves in the former colonies in the period prior to 1776 being under English jurisdiction, and the interim 1776 - 1789 window being sort of a free for all as to who was in charge. Or do you expect the US taxpayers to cover what England, France, and Spain did?
Isn't that basically what we did when we were throwing the party called the Marshall Plan, at least for England and France?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crone
The jews have many generations head start on the American blacks.
When were jews forbidden to marry? learn to read?
I suggest you are assuming the same level of emotional health. IMO, that is a moving target.
In the Russian Pale of Settlement. I believe that reading, at least, was banned, as well as access to Russian marriages. And Jews are famously neurotic.
Of course whites will be punished. Now they'll have to cover the Social Security for tens of millions of blacks who never contributed to the system!
I have a mother and father who contributed, grandparents, a sibling, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., all of them, including myself plus tens of millions of others.
That's true, but they are the only group to have been actually enslaved en masse.
The Jews are the only group to be ghetto-ized and killed en masse.
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