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The trouble with your logic is that many---if not all---of the Jefferson quotes were things said when he was trying to rally support for signing the Declaration of Independence and for fighting against England. There is no evidence to believe he'd feel the same way about taking up armed against the very government that he helped found, a system with checks and balances that has served us well all these years since.
You would be incorrect in your feelings of that. In fact, Thomas Jefferson saw absolutely nothing wrong with the Shay's rebellion, and one of those quotes was his reflections on how there should be a rebellion every few years to keep government in line.
Thomas Jefferson was part of the anti-government Democratic-Republicans who believed only in limited government as outlined by the constitution. Thomas Jefferson was the greatest patriot this country has ever known, and was also the greatest defender of freedom. And Thomas Jefferson believed that all men are created equal and that we all have unalienable rights. But that governments only role should be to ensure peoples rights were protected and nothing else.
Thomas Jefferson tried to abolish slavery and condemn the British for forcing slavery on the colonies in the Declaration of Independence, but was incapable of doing so because the Southern states wouldn't have joined the Union if slavery had been abolished. During Thomas Jeffersons presidency he stopped the slave trade, and made the Louisana purchase(the only truly legal expansion of the United States).
And even though Thomas Jefferson hated slavery, I can guarantee you that he would have been a southern sympathizer during the Civil war, because the civil war was not about slavery, it was about states-rights. And he would most assuredly support the tea-party movement, because it is nothing but a small-government group, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson wanted.
Thomas Jefferson would never have needed to fight against the government he helped create, for two reasons. One, the government he helped create was under the articles of confederation, which is about as small government as anyone could ever get. Thomas Jefferson was not at the constitutional convention and did not sign our consitution, he did not create our government. And two, because the government prior to the abuses of the civil war era is not the same massive government we have today.
Maybe you should read a little about Thomas Jefferson and his principles before you make any accusations of his policies.
Thomas Jefferson was the biggest supporter of states rights. And if his fundamental principles had been followed till this day, individually we would all be much better off today.
Why States Rights are the Answer Today*|*Colorado Tenth Amendment Center (http://colorado.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/12/why-states-rights-are-the-answer-today/ - broken link)
The Growing Movement to Nullify National Health Care | Politics & Economics (http://www.rightsidenews.com/200912127748/politics-and-economics/the-growing-movement-to-nullify-national-health-care.html - broken link)
There wouldn't have been a need for secession if the federal government was limited.
You would be incorrect in your feelings of that. In fact, Thomas Jefferson saw absolutely nothing wrong with the Shay's rebellion, and one of those quotes was his reflections on how there should be a rebellion every few years to keep government in line.
Thomas Jefferson was part of the anti-government Democratic-Republicans who believed only in limited government .......................... etc.........................etc...............etc. ........
Thanks for the history lesson. You certainly know more about Jefferson than I care to know. However, it doesn't change my mind about there being no valid reason for an armed revolve against our current government. Society is far more complicated and intertwined than it was the days of Jefferson.
Thanks for the history lesson. You certainly know more about Jefferson than I care to know. However, it doesn't change my mind about there being no valid reason for an armed revolve against our current government. Society is far more complicated and intertwined than it was the days of Jefferson.
Typical elitist jibberish. Get called out for not knowing history, then the only response is to belittle it and dismiss it.
Typical elitist jibberish. Get called out for not knowing history, then the only response is to belittle it and dismiss it.
How did I dismiss and belittle his interest in Jefferson? He obviously knows a lot about that man. I accept that and thanked him for the history lesson. I probably know a lot about a topic he cares little about. Big deal. We're all different. Oops...now that "big deal" could be construed as as "belittling" but I assure you I am not doing that and didn't do that up above.
Last edited by Wayland Woman; 01-03-2010 at 08:47 PM..
Reason: added 3rd sentence
You would be a Traitor, not a Patriot, to me and the vast majority of Americans. You do know what we do with Traitors here don't ya?
Casper
You do realize that Thomas Jefferson and all the other founding fathers would have been considered Traitors and would have been executed for treason had they not won the revolutionary war.
It is believed that only about 40% of colonialists supported independence. About 60% of Americans either did not support independence but stayed neutral or actively fought alongside the British. Benedicte Arnold comes to mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas
I see you like to label those that disagree with your POV, the last gasp of someone losing a discussion. Let me pass on a few facts for ya. An insurrection only works when the People are behind it, you are delusional if you think the masses are on your side, heck they would probaly put you down themselves. As for the military not being able to deal with hand to hand fighting; just tells me you were never a combat soldier. You have a very rude awakening coming if you ever find the nerve to really try something, which I am sure you never will. All I see are a bunch of armchair warriors.
Casper
The masses want freedom, security, and prosperity. As long as they believe it is in their best interest to stay "in the union", they will. If they were to believe that their best interest would be to secede, and it was worth it enough for them to fight for it. Then they would.
The truth is, most people vote with their wallet. Almost all wars are fought because of some sort of economic benefit.
To me, for an insurrection to happen, the economy would have to collapse to great depression levels. There would have to be a large group of people used as kind of the "scape-goat" for the cause of the depression, especially how it relates to unemployment. Which would probably need to be accompanied by some perceived feeling of loss of liberty. And lastly, for economics reasons, there would need to be some kind of massive increase in taxes, and companies would need to be fearful of government regulations and other intrusions.
In our case, most of these things already exist, but not quite the extent it would need to for an insurrection.
The economy is in recession, but isn't severe enough. Many fear further real-estate price depression because the housing market is still very overpriced compared to inflation-adjusted normal levels. The federal government has personally bought up almost every single new home loan this year through Fannie, Freddie, and FHA loans, because they want to artificially inflate the housing market again to make it appear as if the economy has rebounded. But they will actually create another bubble that will eventually burst. Especially since there were so many loans focused heavily on "first-time buyers". Throw in the probability of mass layoffs after the holidays, the normal depressionary time at the beginning of every year. The price of oil is up to about $80 a barrel and keeps rising. Many middle-eastern countries had a conference wanting to take Oil off the dollar, which would cause the price of oil to skyrocket.
The government itself has been the cause of the economic downturn, through regulations on fannie/freddie, the community reinvestment act, and the extremely low federal interest rates of the early 2000's. Immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, are becoming more and more a reminder of what divides us, and why the federal government has become more and more ineffective at regulating our massive country. Add to that the talk of passing amnesty. Throw in the fear that democrats ultimately want to repeal the second amendment, and greatly increase taxes. Many people are very worried of their personal liberties being stripped away slowly(if not immediately) by this administration.
Then throw in healthcare reform, which will increase taxes, expand government, redistribute wealth, and many people see it as being much more to the benefit of minorities and immigrants than to the people who actually pay the taxes for these programs(almost entirely the white middle/upper-class).
I don't know about you, but I see that as a pretty good foundation for a revolution.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 01-03-2010 at 09:14 PM..
You do realize that Thomas Jefferson and all the other founding fathers would have been considered Traitors and would have been executed for treason had they not won the revolutionary war.
It is believed that only about 40% of colonialists supported independence. About 60% of Americans either did not support independence but stayed neutral or actively fought alongside the British. Benedicte Arnold comes to mind.
The masses want freedom, security, and prosperity. As long as they believe it is in their best interest to stay "in the union", they will. If they were to believe that their best interest would be to secede, and it was worth it enough for them to fight for it. Then they would.
The truth is, most people vote with their wallet. Almost all wars are fought because of some sort of economic benefit.
To me, for an insurrection to happen, the economy would have to collapse to great depression levels. There would have to be a large group of people used as kind of the "scape-goat" for the cause of the depression, especially how it relates to unemployment. Which would probably need to be accompanied by some perceived feeling of loss of liberty. And lastly, for economics reasons, there would need to be some kind of massive increase in taxes, and companies would need to be fearful of government regulations and other intrusions.
In our case, most of these things already exist, but not quite the extent it would need to for an insurrection.
The economy is in recession, but isn't severe enough. Many fear further real-estate price depression because the housing market is still very overpriced compared to inflation-adjusted normal levels. The federal government has personally bought up almost every single new home loan this year through Fannie, Freddie, and FHA loans, because they want to artificially inflate the housing market again to make it appear as if the economy has rebounded. But they will actually create another bubble that will eventually burst. Especially since there were so many loans focused heavily on "first-time buyers". Throw in the probability of mass layoffs after the holidays, the normal depressionary time at the beginning of every year. The price of oil is up to about $80 a barrel and keeps rising. Many middle-eastern countries had a conference wanting to take Oil off the dollar, which would cause the price of oil to skyrocket.
The government itself has been the cause of the economic downturn, through regulations on fannie/freddie, the community reinvestment act, and the extremely low federal interest rates of the early 2000's. Immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, are becoming more and more a reminder of what divides us, and why the federal government has become more and more ineffective at regulating our massive country. Add to that the talk of passing amnesty. Throw in the fear that democrats ultimately want to repeal the second amendment, and greatly increase taxes. Many people are very worried of their personal liberties being stripped away slowly(if not immediately) by this administration.
Then throw in healthcare reform, which will increase taxes, expand government, redistribute wealth, and many people see it as being much more to the benefit of minorities and immigrants than to the people who actually pay the taxes for these programs(almost entirely the white middle/upper-class).
I don't know about you, but I see that as a pretty good foundation for a revolution.
No liberties have been lost, if you can name some please do so.
No one was forced to give loans, many leanding institutions did not.
Amnesy is not going to happen, Bush proved it does not work and the People are totally against it.
Taxes were going to go up even if Obama and the Demos had done nothing, we have been running our shiow on borrowed monies, much of it from China, sooner or later all bills must be paid, fighting two wars is not cheap either. So, no matter who is President our taxes were going to go up, how much is to be seen.
Unemployment is going down slightly and over 80% of companies are stating that they will be hiring in 2010. Yes, it will take time to reduce the numbers, we dug ourselves into a deep hole.
As for Jefferson, he did not live in a country with representatives voted in by the people THAT is what led to the Revolution, that is Not the case today, no matter what those that lost want to claim.
No, we are Nowhere near a revolution in this nation and those that wish it do not have the support or conviction to actually try to bring one about.
As I asked another poster, if this government were to be overthrown, what would replace it? I have yet to get an answer, I begin to wonder if there is something those wanting revolution do not want the masses to know.
This nation is not perfect and, yes, there are many things that could be improved. As Americans we tend to voice our opinions, but there already is a much easier and bloodless method put in place by our Founding Fathers to bring about change, it is called the power of the vote.
Casper
The Founding Fathers didn't take up arms over taxes, they took up arms because they were being taxed without representation in Parliment. Get your facts straight.
Sir, need I remind you this is the internet. Facts have no place here.
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