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As for E.U. nations wanting access to the British market, it’s Britain that’s in no position to refuse that access. After all, Britain wants that same access to E.U. markets.
What you described here is called a trade deal. EU and the UK get together and negotiate free trade in sectors that are important for both countries.
If UK leaves with no deal and do not beg to come back, then EU will have to secure their own industry and make a trade deal. Once that happens Brexit will be completed.
It's complicated. I well remember when we entered the Common Market as it was known in the early 70s. Most ordinary British folk knew little about it. Our PM of the time Edward Heath negotiated a deal, and in we went. All we heard was it was a great way to trade, without tariff. There was no talk of an EU, or us handing over more and more power to them, to run our lives. There was no referendum vote for us entering the Common Market. A few years later, there was a vote on remaining members of the CM. This went to remain.
As time passed, the CM morphed into the EU, forever taking more and more power away from national governments. This made many here in England especially uneasy. I well remember Margaret Thatcher being reluctant to sign away more and more power to the EU.
We have always been reluctant members, trying to slow down the ever closer union of member states. I am amazed looking back to the 2016 vote, that the elites that rule us didn't see this coming. Everybody from the money markets, to PM David Cameron thought the vote to remain was in the bag. In all my posts in the UK thread at the time, I said the vote would go to leave. If the politicians had bothered to talk with anyone outside London, especially in the north of England, they would have seen the determination to vote leave.
The foot dragging is not being done by the over 17 million who voted to leave. It's the London elite determined to thwart the vote result. They go on about refusing to leave without a deal. It isn't a deal they want, it's to remain in the EU. They refuse to acknowledge the righteous anger of those who voted to leave. We were told the result would be binding, and we better think long and hard how we voted. The threats came from all directions, from President Obama, to the EU leaders, right on to our politicians. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said if we voted leave, there would be an immediate emergency budget raising taxes, and the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs. The only people who lost their jobs was him, and PM David Cameron.
Now, Boris Johnson swears blind we'll be out by October 31st. No ifs or buts, out. He has formed a new cabinet more Brexit leaning. I believe he will do whatever he can to take us out. He knows this mess cannot heal until we leave the EU. He has a fight on his hands, from Tory politicians saying they will vote with the Labour party, in a vote of confidence to bring down Johnson's government, forcing a General Election. If Labour manage to form a government, and that isn't guaranteed, then they will go crawling back to the EU begging forgiveness, us even daring to vote to leave. If that happens, the cancer of this awful political mess will fester, and grow. It cannot heal until we leave the EU, and let them continue in their desire to form a United States of Europe. It isn't for us.
The non-Democratic nature of the EU is spreading cracks through the whole thing. I was honestly astounded when the UK joined. I'd have been less surprised seeing Switzerland or Russia join the EU. The UK has always kept itself at an arm's length from the rest of the continent. But the un-Democratic nature of the EU is probably going to lose them Italy and France next, and we'll see where it goes from there. The wildly unpopular insistence on mass immigration has pissed off a lot of Europeans as well. Migrants raping their women and turning nice parts of Europe into hellholes hasn't helped engender good will either. Oh sure, much of that gets overblown or exaggerated, but one refugee raping or murdering one European girl is one too many, at least for some people.If you hadn't let them in to begin with, the crime never happens, so there's that. Bad rules, bad deals and continual ill treatment/management by the EU overall. It's all grains of sand piling up into a larger and larger heap and it's going to kill off the "United States of Europe" if they don't do some pretty massive course changing soon.
I'll be curious to see if they can save their little experiment. I wouldn't put any money on the long-term survival of the EU.
What you described here is called a trade deal. EU and the UK get together and negotiate free trade in sectors that are important for both countries.
If UK leaves with no deal and do not beg to come back, then EU will have to secure their own industry and make a trade deal. Once that happens Brexit will be completed.
Then the question is who is presently in the worst possible position.
I submit that it’s Britain hands down. No question about that. In the high stakes game of Britain vs the E.U., I can’t lose that bet if i put all my money on the E.U.
Then the question is who is presently in the worst possible position.
I submit that it’s Britain hands down. No question about that. In the high stakes game of Britain vs the E.U., I can’t lose that bet if i put all my money on the E.U.
We are in the worst possible position. No arguing there. 27 united EU nations against one. It doesn't matter. We voted to leave, as we don't want to be a part of this club anymore.
We have to see, at least for now, as Europe lost to us, as if in a war. We want to regain control of our borders, and laws. We have had enough of the likes of the arrogant Tusk and Juncker, and all the EU leaders to come after they are gone.
Boris Johnson has brought some hope to those of us who voted out. We have seen politicians do their best to ignore the democratic vote. By doing this, we have gone through a political crisis. It won't heal until we leave the EU. It's up to Johnson now to force his way past the remainers, and get us out of the EU. He is determined, but it's going to be very difficult. If he fails, and a General Election is called, we could well see the end of his political party as a genuine force. He knows it, and so do many of his cabinet. Minds will be concentrated for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight
I see poverty and continuing budget cuts by a conservative government, nothing materialized after the 1998 peace agreement but alt least they have an open border. Other than that Northern Ireland has fallen well behind the UK. Two years without a local government.
Then the question is who is presently in the worst possible position.
I submit that it’s Britain hands down. No question about that. In the high stakes game of Britain vs the E.U., I can’t lose that bet if i put all my money on the E.U.
I would argue that the EU is in the worst position. There is rising discontent in all corners of the EU against EU policy and the overall non-Democratic nature of the EU.
So if the EU is abusive to the UK on their way out, then it makes the EU look tyrannical and other member states will begin to question whether being a part of it is a good idea in the first place. If the EU is amicable and generous, then member states that are being taken over by populist/common-people first movements will feel a lot more confident going forward with their own exit from the EU. The UK has put the EU in a no-win situation. The best they can do now is try to reassure everyone still in that they're better off staying in that leaving. In the short term, the interests of industry and stability favor maintaining free trade and good deals and as little disruption to the status quo as possible. Does the EU want to manufacture a completely unnecessary chaos just to prove a point, especially when everyone knows it will be a manufactured chaos? Will the EU have a bit of a tantrum, thereby sending shockwaves through European economies?
No I'd say that the UK is in a stronger position than the EU here, but that's just my two cents. But regardless of who is in a position of strength, the people of the UK have spoken and their voice must be heard. If the Tories can't deliver Brexit, it is very likely to end their party. A Nigel Farage led Brexit Party wins the next elections possibly with a UKIP coalition giving them the majority. Farage gets the job done and something new forms from the ashes of the Conservative Party.
Location: Somewhere between the Americas and Western Europe
2,180 posts, read 640,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
The non-Democratic nature of the EU is spreading cracks through the whole thing. I was honestly astounded when the UK joined. I'd have been less surprised seeing Switzerland or Russia join the EU. The UK has always kept itself at an arm's length from the rest of the continent. But the un-Democratic nature of the EU is probably going to lose them Italy and France next, and we'll see where it goes from there. The wildly unpopular insistence on mass immigration has pissed off a lot of Europeans as well. Migrants raping their women and turning nice parts of Europe into hellholes hasn't helped engender good will either. Oh sure, much of that gets overblown or exaggerated, but one refugee raping or murdering one European girl is one too many, at least for some people.[/b]If you hadn't let them in to begin with, the crime never happens, so there's that. Bad rules, bad deals and continual ill treatment/management by the EU overall. It's all grains of sand piling up into a larger and larger heap and it's going to kill off the "United States of Europe" if they don't do some pretty massive course changing soon.
I'll be curious to see if they can save their little experiment. I wouldn't put any money on the long-term survival of the EU.
Absolutely it is.
If they were loyal to their people and country, German politicians would see that one German girl's life is worth 1000 of the flotsam and jetsam crossing the Mediterranean or flowing in from the Middle East. German politicians should be putting Germans first. Other Europeans should be looking after Europeans first. Not taking in hordes of illiterates and layabouts whose most advanced skill is using a smartphone and expecting them all to be the doctors of tomorrow.
Britain is right to get out of this before the situation explodes on the continent.
I would argue that the EU is in the worst position. There is rising discontent in all corners of the EU against EU policy and the overall non-Democratic nature of the EU.
So if the EU is abusive to the UK on their way out, then it makes the EU look tyrannical and other member states will begin to question whether being a part of it is a good idea in the first place. If the EU is amicable and generous, then member states that are being taken over by populist/common-people first movements will feel a lot more confident going forward with their own exit from the EU. The UK has put the EU in a no-win situation. The best they can do now is try to reassure everyone still in that they're better off staying in that leaving. In the short term, the interests of industry and stability favor maintaining free trade and good deals and as little disruption to the status quo as possible. Does the EU want to manufacture a completely unnecessary chaos just to prove a point, especially when everyone knows it will be a manufactured chaos? Will the EU have a bit of a tantrum, thereby sending shockwaves through European economies?
No I'd say that the UK is in a stronger position than the EU here, but that's just my two cents. But regardless of who is in a position of strength, the people of the UK have spoken and their voice must be heard. If the Tories can't deliver Brexit, it is very likely to end their party. A Nigel Farage led Brexit Party wins the next elections possibly with a UKIP coalition giving them the majority. Farage gets the job done and something new forms from the ashes of the Conservative Party.
The EU have no choice but to punish us. Any other course may encourage other potential leavers like Italy. The number one priority for the EU is holding the line. Theresa May allowed the EU to dominate negotiations. As a remainer at heart, she was totally wrong for the job she was given. The civil service Mandarins also are remainers. The only chance we ever had was a team of hard line Brexiteers fighting our corner. Three years since the vote have been wasted.
We now have a PM determined to deliver Brexit. Part of this determination is knowing the very survival of the political party he leads is at stake. I have no doubt there is a behind the scenes clear out of civil service remainers going on right now. He has to have a top to bottom team determined to deliver Brexit. If he fails, then the Tory party will be decimated by the angry voters after a General Election is forced by a vote of confidence lost by Boris Johnson in Parliament.
The problem the EU have in attempts to hurt and punish us, is at the same time, they will hurt themselves. A hard Brexit won't just cost jobs in the UK. Angela Merkel is very aware how many German jobs depend on trade with the UK.
But, if bad feeling all round takes deep root, then a cold war situation will become the norm, and a way back to a trade deal will be very difficult to achieve. The more the EU tries to hurt us, the more the UK will look for ways to return the favour. After delivering Brexit, Johnson would pick his moment to call an election. The EU being seen to be trying to damage us further economically would I believe, have the effect on the British people of forming a bunker mentality, and maybe, with the support of Nigel Farage, enable the Tories to win, and become ever more right wing.
At times like this, after a farcical period in politics, the opposition Labour Party should be odds on for a massive electoral victory. But, the leader of that party is held in high suspicion by much of the voting population. He has been a hater of the EU for decades, but under pressure from within his party, has been forced to now state he wants to remain in the EU. Boris Johnson was not slow in pointing this out yesterday in Parliament. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has a history of supporting terrorists, even inviting IRA members into his Parliament office for talks, while they were still killing British soldiers, and innocent civilians. Many traditional supporters of the Labour party, will not vote for this man.
Also, Nigel Farage, as he proved in the recent Euro elections, came from literally nowhere, to gain 29 seats. His Brexit party will take votes from both Labour and the Tories in a General election. We could end up with another minority government needing the support of others to take power. If Labour need help from the likes of the Scottish SNP, they will demand a high price. The idea of the Scots, helping Labour form a government, would infuriate the English voters. The very Scots, who are demanding yet another election for remaining as part of the UK. It would be Labour shaking hands with the devil, if that is what it takes, to form a government of a massively majority population of the UK of English people.
These are perilous times for the UK. The country is split practically down the middle on EU membership. But, a vote was given, and promises made the result either way would stand, and be carried out. Against the odds, leave won. This democratic vote must be carried out, before we can move on, and put this mess behind us. It will be hard going forward, but in the home of democracy, the will of the people must be carried out. Doesn't matter if this hurts us economically, we knew this when we voted. It is the price of regaining control of our borders, and laws. We know what we're dealing with when it comes to the EU. These last few years have proved to us, we need to get out of this poisonous club.
... Theresa May allowed the EU to dominate negotiations. As a remainer at heart, she was totally wrong for the job she was given. The civil service Mandarins also are remainers. The only chance we ever had was a team of hard line Brexiteers fighting our corner. Three years since the vote have been wasted. ...
Reading this, one is tempted to forget, that 48% of the British public voted to remain. Doesn't their opinion matter in the least?
Reading this, one is tempted to forget, that 48% of the British public voted to remain. Doesn't their opinion matter in the least?
Does a minority matter in American elections?
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