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I'm not really a leftist, but on THIS forum Trumplings assume I am, since I'm not one of them.
I've been toting a concealed handgun for over a decade now. It's one of those "just in case" preparations that folks of all political preferences will perform. There hasn't been a report on any concealed carriers at the El Paso massacre, so we simply don't know at this point if there were or not.
But no handgun is a good match vs a high cap semiauto like the shooter's AK.
The best tactic for just about anyone in a mass shooting incident would be to exit the area ASAP, whether or not you have a handgun on you.
That's only because you post leftist ideas just about every time.
Free will, to protect or die, is a foreign concept to those who have no understanding of natural rights.
These are the same folks who have used the State to criminalize suicide around the globe. In some places, even in the U.S., those statutes remain on their fictional books (usually in the form of "common law").
And of course, the concept that is above this one that squashes that poster's point is that property rights are absolute.
I can also walk around with a portable tire inflator. I may or may not produce it to remedy your flat tire or even my own.
So there ya have it boys and girls and all 6 billion genders. I have the right to own it...ABSOLUTE. I have the right to produce it or NOT produce it in an apparent time of need for you or myself.
Here is the deal. You gun toters always say "The only thing that stops a bad guy is a good guy with a gun." Ok, WHERE WERE ALL THOSE GOOD GUYS ? I think, in Texas, there has to be a substantial ratio of citizens who are armed. ( Hell, I live in Florida, and I know, in my circle of acquaintances, 5 or 6 people who never leave the house without their pistols......one is a married couple, and both of them carry)
It has been proven that Joe or Nancy Average will FREEZE in unexpected situations, and never get a round off. Like a previous poster said, his main concern would be to flee with his family, which I can completely understand. If you are out shopping , the last thing your mind can grasp is an instantaneous attack and people fleeing all around you in a state of panic and the sound of multiple shots being fired.
Law Enforcement people train often to keep their skills honed. The average person does not. When confronted with an unexpected attack, average citizens would not know how to react or even WHO to shoot.
THAT is why no one in either huge crowd took out the shooters, it took trained police to do that job. It is false security to be carrying a gun, because 99% of people would never get theirs out before it was too late.
Proven? Proven where? By whom?
Actually they don't. 4 years ago our new sheriff decided to enforce mandatory firearm proficiency requirements and about 10% of the force decided to quit. Why? Some had not been to the range in 10 years. The enforced physical fitness requirements also caused a few to take early retirement.
A few years ago I took a class from the guys in the video below. It was organized through a local gun forum and not a single student was part of law enforcement. At the end of the weekend class, they said we were one of their best (not better) classes. They went on to explain that most LEOs who take their class are forced to do so and the students really don't want to be there. The class is also paid for by the department so they have no investment in learning. Finally, a lot of them think they know everything there is to know about shooting and tactics.
Is this your proof? It's one of the most biased piece of "news" I have ever seen.
1. Most of the people were unfamiliar with guns and the one that was, wasn't familiar with the weapon given to him.
2. The attacker knew that someone in class had a gun and focused on that person every time (2:26 of the first video). In a real life situation, the attacker has no knowledge of the people, if 1 or many are armed and where they will be sitting in the room.
3. Mechanics gloves are not shooting gloves and I don't like shooting gloves. I want to be able to feel my finger on the mag release or the raised chamber indicator.
At least normal people know what it takes to reduce mass shootings: Their own ability to carry concealed weapons anywhere, and deciding to train themselves how and when to use them. And the prospective murderers knowing that there will likely be a few people armed and ready, in the next crowd the murderer wants to attack.
Some attacks will still happen. But fewer, as some of the scumbags change their mind and decide NOT to commit their murders.
Presto - a reduction of mass shootings and innocent people killed in them. All without a shot being fired.
Inquiries Into License To Carry Classes Up After Mass Shootings
By Rachel Wulff
August 5, 2019 at 11:46 pm
SACRAMENTO (CBS13) — The number of mass shootings in the last week has prompted many to purchase guns and sign up for classes to earn their license to carry concealed weapons, according to the people who are doing training.
Great to hear. People are hopefully realizing no one , no law is going to protect you. And maybe if these nut jobs understand that more and more people might have the ability to shoot back, it will deter them.
I fully support the 2A and peoples right to defend themselves. BUT, if you are going to take on that mantle you have an obligation to train and practice. Regularly. Not blowing the dust of your weapon after two or three months of laying on the closet shelf or whatever and firing five shots at the range.
Please please please realize the responsibility you are taking on. Be better than the damn cops who fire their weapons once a year to qualify and leave it in the leather the rest of the time. So when they do have to use it they wildly spray and pray dumping 3 magazines and hit innocent people if they hit anything at all. We have a picture hanging at the range of what is captioned as a "suspect with a gun." It is a human figure outlined in bullet pocks on a wall with no hits on the figure. Typical police shooting.
I implore new shooters to take it seriously. And all existing shooters as well. We owe it to our loved ones and ourselves to be the best.
This.
..and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez
I carry for one specific reason - to protect myself and my family. I don't carry to be law enforcement nor a hero.
In a big old Walmart, going against a gunman who is further than 25 feet from me would be a roll of the dice. Going against a gunman with a vest at 25 or more feet would be in his favor.
The best way I can protect myself and my family is to take cover and lay in wait. If the gunman comes into my window within 15 feet and I have the the advantage of seeing him first, the odds are in my favor even if he has a vest.
Sure, there might be a range camper with his 45 1911 that can put 8 in a cantaloupe from 30 every time, but I can't.
If I had been in that Walmart on the opposite side of the store, first I would have sought an escape. Second, I'd look for a good hiding spot with my 9 trained on the closest corner. So had I been there on tge opposite side armed, there is probably a 97% chance I would not have fired a shot.
Like I said, I don't carry to be LEO.
...this too.
I was trained military and LEO. All sorts of CQC stuff, lots and lots of shooting guns inside fake houses/buildings, induced stress, timed runs, pistol/rifle/shotgun, blah blah. And I have exactly zero interest or desire to ever do the real thing. Training and preparing are a fine and wonderful thing, same thing as purchasing insurance imho, but I don't pay my homeowners policy hoping that someday I get to watch a tornado destroy my house. I don't pay my car insurance so I can drive off a cliff. And I do not train and practice with my firearms hoping to actually engage in lethal ranged combat.
Were I in that WalMart and carrying, I would have done exactly as Pedro describes. Find a proper hiding spot, maybe covering someone defenseless if I saw one, and just waiting it out in as good a defensive position as I could conjure up, hoping and praying to G-d that I hid well enough to never fire that weapon.
Because it's like NVplumber says - one of the most serious responsibilities to accept. I don't shoot hundreds of rounds at each range visit because I am in love with my firearms. I do it because if I was ever in a situation where that thing has to be used for its designed purpose, I am skilled enough to not recklessly endanger anyone other than the person I am aiming it at. I am responsible for anything that leaves that barrel; it belongs to me. There are no "whoops, my bad" take backs where people getting shot is concerned.
So not only do I need to practice hitting what I am aiming at and where I am aiming, but also the restraint to not shoot at all unless it has literally come down to having no other choice and it is all that stands between life and death. I am not a cop anymore. I am not in the military anymore. I traded in all my stripes and badges and am just another individual with my natural rights, bound by he Non Aggression Principle, owing my fellow man only one thing - respect for their natural rights.
But practice I do, and carry I do. And in that WalMart scenario, my hope would be to have survived, having hid well enough to never actually lay eyes on the shooter, and maybe protected another person or two. Period. Find cover, draw weapon, wait it out. Hope and pray I don't get dead and I don't have to make anyone else that way.
You'll find most responsible, sober CCWs and firearm owners generally think this way. I hunt varmints and deer occasionally. I leave hunting people to the agents of tyranny, since that is their mandate, not mine.
I was trained military and LEO. All sorts of CQC stuff, lots and lots of shooting guns inside fake houses/buildings, induced stress, timed runs, pistol/rifle/shotgun, blah blah. And I have exactly zero interest or desire to ever do the real thing. Training and preparing are a fine and wonderful thing, same thing as purchasing insurance imho, but I don't pay my homeowners policy hoping that someday I get to watch a tornado destroy my house. I don't pay my car insurance so I can drive off a cliff. And I do not train and practice with my firearms hoping to actually engage in lethal ranged combat.
Were I in that WalMart and carrying, I would have done exactly as Pedro describes. Find a proper hiding spot, maybe covering someone defenseless if I saw one, and just waiting it out in as good a defensive position as I could conjure up, hoping and praying to G-d that I hid well enough to never fire that weapon.
Because it's like NVplumber says - one of the most serious responsibilities to accept. I don't shoot hundreds of rounds at each range visit because I am in love with my firearms. I do it because if I was ever in a situation where that thing has to be used for its designed purpose, I am skilled enough to not recklessly endanger anyone other than the person I am aiming it at. I am responsible for anything that leaves that barrel; it belongs to me. There are no "whoops, my bad" take backs where people getting shot is concerned.
So not only do I need to practice hitting what I am aiming at and where I am aiming, but also the restraint to not shoot at all unless it has literally come down to having no other choice and it is all that stands between life and death. I am not a cop anymore. I am not in the military anymore. I traded in all my stripes and badges and am just another individual with my natural rights, bound by he Non Aggression Principle, owing my fellow man only one thing - respect for their natural rights.
But practice I do, and carry I do. And in that WalMart scenario, my hope would be to have survived, having hid well enough to never actually lay eyes on the shooter, and maybe protected another person or two. Period. Find cover, draw weapon, wait it out. Hope and pray I don't get dead and I don't have to make anyone else that way.
You'll find most responsible, sober CCWs and firearm owners generally think this way. I hunt varmints and deer occasionally. I leave hunting people to the agents of tyranny, since that is their mandate, not mine.
Truth. And you are one of very few LEO types I have encountered of late to have this mindset. A common thing I hear from cops, especially the mass of young inexperienced types, is that they carry their weapon 8 hours a day. They have no desire to touch it off duty. That's scary.
Your take on a probable situation for an armed citizen in that Wal Mart is pretty spot on. It is unlikely we would get a clear shot from a lethal distance especially if he's wearing armor. Plus the fleeing crowd of innocents is his cover. Just as good or better than a steel wall for us. We are not covered by that qualified immunity thing like cops are now. Any bullet that leaves our weapon we are fully accountable for. If it ends up in an innocent in an attempt to take out a shooter we do not get an A for effort. We will get prison time.
Excellent, new US all time record for deaths by gun coming in 2020 methinks, keep it up USA lets see if you can lose 100,000 lives in one year. That's one record that's gonna take some time for another first world country (is the US still 1st world?) to beat.
I was trained military and LEO. All sorts of CQC stuff, lots and lots of shooting guns inside fake houses/buildings, induced stress, timed runs, pistol/rifle/shotgun, blah blah. And I have exactly zero interest or desire to ever do the real thing. Training and preparing are a fine and wonderful thing, same thing as purchasing insurance imho, but I don't pay my homeowners policy hoping that someday I get to watch a tornado destroy my house. I don't pay my car insurance so I can drive off a cliff. And I do not train and practice with my firearms hoping to actually engage in lethal ranged combat.
Were I in that WalMart and carrying, I would have done exactly as Pedro describes. Find a proper hiding spot, maybe covering someone defenseless if I saw one, and just waiting it out in as good a defensive position as I could conjure up, hoping and praying to G-d that I hid well enough to never fire that weapon.
Because it's like NVplumber says - one of the most serious responsibilities to accept. I don't shoot hundreds of rounds at each range visit because I am in love with my firearms. I do it because if I was ever in a situation where that thing has to be used for its designed purpose, I am skilled enough to not recklessly endanger anyone other than the person I am aiming it at. I am responsible for anything that leaves that barrel; it belongs to me. There are no "whoops, my bad" take backs where people getting shot is concerned.
So not only do I need to practice hitting what I am aiming at and where I am aiming, but also the restraint to not shoot at all unless it has literally come down to having no other choice and it is all that stands between life and death. I am not a cop anymore. I am not in the military anymore. I traded in all my stripes and badges and am just another individual with my natural rights, bound by he Non Aggression Principle, owing my fellow man only one thing - respect for their natural rights.
But practice I do, and carry I do. And in that WalMart scenario, my hope would be to have survived, having hid well enough to never actually lay eyes on the shooter, and maybe protected another person or two. Period. Find cover, draw weapon, wait it out. Hope and pray I don't get dead and I don't have to make anyone else that way.
You'll find most responsible, sober CCWs and firearm owners generally think this way. I hunt varmints and deer occasionally. I leave hunting people to the agents of tyranny, since that is their mandate, not mine.
You would do the same if you had your very young children or an infant with you? How would you keep them from crying, screaming, or leaving, and attracting the attention of the shooter?
I was in a real school lockdown with an escaped gunman on campus. We put as many as we could it into the classroom restroom. 3 and 4 year olds. After about 10 minutes, they realized this was no drill and started crying and screaming for their Mommies. We had to physically block the door because a couple were trying to get out. Used all sorts of distractions to try keep them quiet.
I do not think what you described would work if you had little children with you. There are no children in Military situations.
You would do the same if you had your very young children or an infant with you? How would you keep them from crying, screaming, or leaving, and attracting the attention of the shooter?
You can't. All you can do is cover them with your body, draw the weapon, and hope and pray. It would be my first instinct, same as how every time I have to brake suddenly, my right arm always goes across to try and protect my wife in the passenger seat. Just a reflex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
I was in a real school lockdown with an escaped gunman on campus. We put as many as we could it into the classroom restroom. 3 and 4 year olds. After about 10 minutes, they realized this was no drill and started crying and screaming for their Mommies. We had to physically block the door because a couple were trying to get out. Used all sorts of distractions to try keep them quiet.
Understood, and if I was in that same exact situation, I'd have done the same thing. And if I were carrying and in that same situation, the only thing that would have been different is covering the blocked door with my weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
I do not think what you described would work if you had little children with you. There are no children in Military situations.
What I am describing is covering the child with my body and shielding them from harm. I can win a wrestling match with a frightened kid, pretty sure, so I would cover them and wait. If they cry and scream even though I say shush, well, panic happens. All I can do is be as defensively prepared as possible. And if god forbid, the maniac decides to come our way, well, then I may end up sad panda with fewer rounds in my pistol and more rounds in the maniac.
I know how my instincts to protect work, and I have been in situations with small children under my care, and I know how I reacted. How the events unfold after the instinct kicks in is anyone's guess. I just know my instinct is to cover, draw, wait and hope.
Not a cop, not a soldier. Running towards danger with an offensive plan is not allowed for me anymore, and thank goodness. And my body mass plus my 52 year old sensibilities plus my rules for civilian carrying of a firearm dictate COVER, DRAW, WAIT and HOPE.
Yeah, if escape is readily available, go for it, by all means. But if it isn't, hiding and waiting is absolutely the preferred option, especially if armed, since you can cover the defensive position and have a tactical advantage once the threat comes into your LoS. A screaming child could definitely complicate that, but what's the other option once escape has been cut off?
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That's scary. 
