CA Dems Please Chime In: 2020; Kamala Harris, Issues (vs, Maine, workers)

[sav858]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Of course I remember that. But, Hilary isn't running and people now see first hand what Trump says and how he executes are wildly divergent. Apples and oranges.

Also, Hilary never had the lead that Biden does in swing states or overall. As mentioned, a lot can change. However, I wouldn't want to be in Trump's shoes with his COVID record as we head into the fall flu season.

There you go again getting a little too comfortable with the "polls". Some people never learn...

But Trump still tries to execute which his supporters like, his stupid border wall for example, DACA, etc...

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Only FoxNews viewers and Q-Anon followers would call her a radical socialist. Really shows how extreme right the Republican party has turned over the past few years. Definitely not an inclusive party that appeals to all (or most) Americans. Their base is fervent but they are shrinking as demographics change. Either the Republican party needs to adapt to the 21st century reality of America or they won't be relevant here long term.

You know, I’m going to make a point here: the Republican Party hasn’t gone “extreme right”. That’s a deprecation of true conservatism. The Republican Party has gone myopically infantile, Trumpist. There’s pretty much nothing truly ‘conservative’ about it. It doesn’t value principles of democracy at all. It doesn’t operate on objective analysis. It doesn’t respect fiscal responsibility. It trashes the founding principles and constitution of the country. It’s a cult of selfish, amoral personality.

Here’s a true, long-time leading voice of conservativism’s call for reform of the party:

Conservative Columnist George Will Thinks It's Time For GOP Reboot

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/86928...for-gop-reboot

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

You know, I’m going to make a point here: the Republican Party hasn’t gone “extreme right”. That’s a deprecation of true conservatism. The Republican Party has gone myopically infantile, Trumpist. There’s pretty much nothing truly ‘conservative’ about it. It doesn’t value principles of democracy at all. It doesn’t operate on objective analysis. It doesn’t respect fiscal responsibility. It trashes the founding principles and constitution of the country. It’s a cult of selfish, amoral personality.

Here’s a true, long-time leading voice of conservativism’s call for reform of the party:

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/86928...for-gop-reboot

I think we're talking apples and oranges. I agree that fiscally, the Republicans haven't gone far right. But, they clearly have socially, as they're aligning more with a fascist, totalitarian view of the world. This is truly a scary thought that our entire democratic system of government is being eroded step by step and that if we don't change the power system soon, this may be a permanent move. With past Republican presidents, I may not have agreed with all of their policies/beliefs, but never did I feel they were putting our democracy at risk.

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by sav858

There you go again getting a little too comfortable with the "polls". Some people never learn...

But Trump still tries to execute which his supporters like, his stupid border wall for example, DACA, etc...

His base is shrinking with the number of people he's alienating. Yes, they're all strong supporters and he's solidifying his base. By alienating the moderates in the process, this is not the pathway to re-election. His base alone is not enough to get him re-elected. You don't seem to understand that.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

I think we're talking apples and oranges. I agree that fiscally, the Republicans haven't gone far right. But, they clearly have socially, as they're aligning more with a fascist, totalitarian view of the world. This is truly a scary thought that our entire democratic system of government is being eroded step by step and that if we don't change the power system soon, this may be a permanent move. With past Republican presidents, I may not have agreed with all of their policies/beliefs, but never did I feel they were putting our democracy at risk.

My point addressed “conservatism” being dropped from the Republican Party. You didn’t say otherwise, so I wasn’t really arguing with you here. You associated today’s Republicans with “the right”. Traditionally, “the right” has meant conservatives in this country. Trumpers aren’t “conservatives” is my point. I just used your association as a launching platform to make that point.

In any case: “Ideologies are poor excuses for lazy intellects.” That goes for anyone who simply signs on to any ideology rather than think through each issue individually and scientifically and objectively.

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

My point addressed “conservatism” being dropped from the Republican Party. You didn’t say otherwise, so I wasn’t really arguing with you here. You associated today’s Republicans with “the right”. Traditionally, “the right” has meant conservatives in this country. Trumpers aren’t “conservatives” is my point. I just used your association as a launching platform to make that point.

In any case: “Ideologies are poor excuses for lazy intellects.” That goes for anyone who simply signs on to any ideology rather than think through each issue individually and scientifically and objectively.

Yep, I think we agree that they're not true conservatives in the historical sense.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

His base is shrinking with the number of people he's alienating. Yes, they're all strong supporters and he's solidifying his base. By alienating the moderates in the process, this is not the pathway to re-election. His base alone is not enough to get him re-elected. You don't seem to understand that.

I'm aware of that but you seem to over-estimate how many people he's alienated and will not vote for him imo. For how bad he's done, he should be way more unpopular. And considering how much Biden and Harris don't energize the left's base, I would very worried about many of them not voting at all or going third party again. You don't seem to think about this strategically but instead rather more emotionally.

[roadwarrior101]

Originally Posted by sav858

I'm aware of that but you seem to over-estimate how many people he's alienated and will not vote for him imo. For how bad he's done, he should be way more unpopular. And considering how much Biden and Harris don't energize the left's base, I would very worried about many of them not voting at all or going third party again.

Provide a data source to show me that I'm underestimating this. I've been going by the polls. Yes, I know the polls have a margin of error (as was evidenced in 2016), but the gap has widened significantly since COVID started in March and shows no sign of slowing down. Here's just one example: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-l...consin-1524886

You keep saying that Biden and Harris don't energize the base, but ignore the fact that 1 - They're moderates and strongly attract those that are not strongly tied to the left or right and 2 - Kamala is an African American woman who will strongly appeal to several demographics (minorities, suburban women, etc.).

[Tulemutt]

But but but but ... the polls were wrong ... once!

It’s never a good idea to be cocky ... on the other hand, it’s not necessary to be alarmist to the point of getting an ulcer:

Polls Are Still As Accurate As They Were 75 Years Ago
A new study shows polling is not undergoing a collapse despite what conventional wisdom might suggest
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ago-180968467/

The presidential polls in 2016 weren't as wrong you think. Here's why you can trust them in 2020.
https://www.businessinsider.com/2020...mp-2016-2020-7

[sav858]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Provide a data source to show me that I'm underestimating this. I've been going by the polls. Yes, I know the polls have a margin of error (as was evidenced in 2016), but the gap has widened significantly since COVID started in March and shows no sign of slowing down. Here's just one example: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-l...consin-1524886

You keep saying that Biden and Harris don't energize the base, but ignore the fact that 1 - They're moderates and strongly attract those that are not strongly tied to the left or right and 2 - Kamala is an African American woman who will strongly appeal to several demographics (minorities, suburban women, etc.).

For like the 10th time, this is the same crap that lost democrats the election last time. I don't understand how you can continue to put so much confidence in polls after the last election this early and be so sure of yourself. And we haven't seen any polls since he announced his VP pick.

If a lot of the base doesn't vote why are you so sure moderates will make up for them? Kamala is also a Bay Area liberal that will turn a lot of voters in other parts of the country off. You really don't think that is a liability? "SF Values" ring a bell at all? This is part of the reason why a lot of us think Kamala was an awful choice.