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Old 09-08-2019, 01:21 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,082 posts, read 10,744,030 times
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Childbirth is an enabling event that endows the child with the ability and right to apply human reasoning as a way to grant or withhold consent. The condition of childhood negates and postpones the authority of that consent in all or most matters. The child has no voice or right of consent on childbirth.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:25 AM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,252,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpinionInOcala View Post
I'm unsure how consent comes into play with respect to being born. I'm also unsure how it can even be a consideration of the person either birthed naturally or otherwise extracted from a womb -- or artificial womb, for that matter. Perhaps you could elaborate on that for me, or at least explain why you believe it constitutes some sort of violation?
First I consider your take to be more nuanced and reasonable than No_Recess's, so I agree with you on the need for at least a second organizing principle. That's all I'm really looking for.

To answer the question above, I think it is obvious that no person can ever consent to being born, so on the face it seems like a theoretical lark.

However a decision is made to create a person, not by that person. You would obviously consider the decision by one person to end another person's life - murder - to be a violation of consent. So why is consent not considered for birth?

The consequences of the actions are equally momentous: the creation and termination of a human life. That creation can never be voluntary does not mean it is also spontaneous or otherwise not chosen by anyone, like deaths due to old age or illness. The creation of human life is always the result of a human choice, even if the consequences are unanticipated. This is what makes birth different from death, and why the question is worthwhile.

Furthermore, we have lots of information available to inform us whether giving birth is wise or not. It's not as if we are subject to cosmic happenstance and just have to roll with the punches. So I disagree that it's like any other part of life where we don't have absolute knowledge of the future. We can make informed decisions even with the uncertainty.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,360,513 times
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Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
So when does a child gain autonomy?

If its at birth does that mean the parent has no authority over them?
1. Cord cutting.

2. Yes.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:26 AM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,252,102 times
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Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
Childbirth is an enabling event that endows the child with the ability and right to apply human reasoning as a way to grant or withhold consent. The condition of childhood negates and postpones the authority of that consent in all or most matters. The child has no voice or right of consent on childbirth.
Not if the child is so severely brain damaged due to the decisions of the parent that they never develop the ability to reason.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Is it a violation of someone consent to give an unconscious person a bed bath? Of course not.

A fetus is not in a state to give consent, hence deciding that it should live cannot be a violation of its consent.
Is it a violation of consent to rape an unconscious person? Surely this cannot be your argument.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,431,235 times
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Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
1. Cord cutting.

2. Yes.
So because a child who can't speak does not consent to their parents control, the parent can't do anything for them.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
So because a child who can't speak does not consent to their parents control, the parent can't do anything for them.
An individual can give charity to any other individual.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,360,513 times
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1. I'm on my phone so that's why answers are short.

2. Going to bed.

3. Lastly, For A New Liberty by Murray Rothbard. Pages 130ish to 140ish? Clears it all up. Well, did for me anyway.
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:40 AM
 
4,698 posts, read 4,073,852 times
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Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Is it a violation of consent to rape an unconscious person? Surely this cannot be your argument.
If someone go into a hospital and have sex with an unconscious person, do we wait till she wakes up to check if she consented or not? No, we arrest the person immediately.

The main violation here is that you should not take advantage of people who are not able to give consent.

Last edited by Camlon; 09-08-2019 at 01:50 AM..
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Old 09-08-2019, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,431,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
An individual can give charity to any other individual.
With consent. Which the child has not given.

ex: lifting the child up without its consent.
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