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View Poll Results: What do you think about the whistleblower? Something, or nothing?
Just another nothing-burger 114 61.96%
Trump's in deep trouble this time 70 38.04%
Voters: 184. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-27-2019, 09:36 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
6,453 posts, read 6,993,477 times
Reputation: 4658

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Nothing IMO....Democrats are only seeing what they are begging to see.


If you look at the Whistleblower report, and align that up with the transcript of the convo...there is just nothing there.


When we read the transcript, and then we hear directly from the Ukrainian PM and the Ukrainian FM, they specifically said that they did not feel any "pressure" to do anything...nor did he specifically ask for an "investigation"...the innuendo to "play ball" based on the transcript doesn't seem to be there either...but let's say the for the sake of argument, it's all true...it would have been perfectly reasonable for an investigation to be open after this:
Quote:
IV. Circumstances leading up to the 25 July Presidential phone call
Beginning in late March 2019, a series of articles appeared in an online publication called The Hill. In these articles, several Ukrainian officials — most notably, Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko — made a series of allegations against other Ukrainian officials and current and former U.S. officials. Mr. Lutsenko and his colleagues alleged, inter alia:
In a report published by the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) on 22 July, two associates of Mr. Giuliani reportedly traveled to Kyiv in May 2019, and met with Mr. Bakanov and another close Zelenskyy adviser, Mr. Serhiy Shefir.


  • that they possessed evidence that Ukrainian officials — namely, Head of the National Anticorruption Bureau of Ukraine Artem Sytnyk and Member of Parliament Serhiy Leshchenko had “interfered” in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, allegedly in collaboration with the DNC and the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv
that the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv — specifically, U.S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, who had criticized Mr. Lutsenko’s organization for its poor record on fighting corruption had allegedly obstructed Ukrainian law enforcement agencies’ pursuit of corruption cases, including by providing a “do not prosecute” list, and had blocked Ukrainian prosecutors from traveling to the United States expressly to prevent them from delivering their “evidence” about the 2016 U.S. election;
and


that former Vice President Biden had pressured former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in 2016 to fire then Ukrainian Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin in order to quash a purported criminal probe into Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company on whose board the former Vice President’s son, Hunter, sat.
Ok, so is Trump suppose to ignore this??? He specifically asked Guiliani and Barr to look into this and because Biden happens to be running for President, should he NOT do anything about it? Apparently, if I'm reading this correctly, the Ukraines wanted to discuss these matters with Trump.

Trump specifically says in the transcript:

Quote:
The President: Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
If you look at what the whistleblower wrote above...Trump's actions and requests appear to be completely in alignment with the allegations...

Now you can criticize Trump and company for securing the records on a more highly sensitive line...and you can criticize him for allowing Guiliani to have such a hands on participation in all of this...but is anything really official misconduct or criminal here?

Does any of this sound any different that any President has ever done? JFK and Khruschev had "back channel" discussions all the time...I'm sure Bush Sr had them with Saddam, and I'm sure Clinton had them with Arafat...it doesn't seem like anything unusual for any head of state.

Now in the NYT's and the WSJ, they keep headlining "FAVOR" (i.e as in personal favor) AND if you read the transcript he clearly is asking for a "favor" to the United States, not him personally...

Quote:
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it.
And the problem with this is what exactly? The allegations specifically cite Joe Biden and his son, they specifically cite the DNC and the server...Trump asked them to "look into it and get to the bottom of it"...and the problem exactly with that is what?? I just don't see it.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Florida
10,389 posts, read 3,976,942 times
Reputation: 8380
Nothing burger. And when the democrats realize they failed again, watch another mass shooting take place to change the topic on MSM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Pinetop-Lakeside, AZ
2,922 posts, read 3,073,031 times
Reputation: 4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by 205 View Post
"Show me the man and I'll show you the crime" Stalin would be proud of you.

The shameless, unmitigated gall of TDS infected maniacs like this to accuse the President of extorting a foreign leader to assist in investigating 2016 election interference and any other potential law breaking when Biden is caught ON TAPE doing the very thing Trump supposedly did is amazing. These people have ZERO scruples!!

Let's review...

1) Clinton deletes 33,000 emails that have been subpoenaed and is exonerated weeks before she is even interviewed and has the initial finding of gross negligence which is a crime changed to extreme carelessness which isn't. Somehow...someway the deletion of subpoenaed emails and destroyed blackberries isn't considered obstruction of justice.

2) Trump, on the other hand, is accused of "colluding" with Russia while Hillary's campaign through Fusion GPS uses Russian disinformation gathered from ex British spy Steele and this disinformation is somehow used to get a fraudalent FISC warrant to illegally spy on the Trump campaign yet amazingly this ISN'T collusion to steal an election.

3) A 22 month investigation by Mueller is conducted is unable to find any proof of collusion despite multiple attempts by the FBI to try to entrap Trump campaign associates yet they STILL can't establish any proof of a crime. The Mueller report is written in a manner that mentions instances of possible obstruction while simultaneously including tiny blurbs hidden near the end of each instance that admits they couldn't conclude the instances of obstruction occurred. Despite this, lying hacks in their unhinged maniacal hatred of the President insist to this very day that the Mueller report shows clear proof of obstruction

4) Mueller testifies and tries to make the absurd and unprecedented argument that he "couldn't exonerate" Trump. When questioned about this absurd standard, he makes an even more absurd statement that this was a "special circumstance" as if the president isn't afforded the same civil liberty of innocent until proven guilty that any normal American citizen is. Just a sad, pathetic display yet the lying dishonest Trump haters insist Trump should be thrown in jail.

5) Trump takes the unprecedented step of having to release the transcript of a call with a foreign leader jeopardizing national security with now not being able to talk confidentially with foreign leaders because Trump haters in our intelligence services drunk for power by any means listen in on and leak his calls to the media. Suddenly it's the call for cooperation from a foreign government involved in 2016 election interference that is the big crime and not a former vice president on tape bragging about withholding 1 billion taxpayer dollars if the prosecutor investigating his son isn't fired. Not a speck of curiosity about the investigator about to interview his son being fired but non stop hysteria about a president asking a foreign leader for assistance in investigating his country's illegal participation in interfering in the 2016 election.

This doesn't even get into the Kavanaugh fiasco and the pathetic 3rd world Banana Republic tactics of Democrats and their media friends in that clown show.

The Democrats and their nutcase TDS infected mainstream media buddies have a lot of nerve daring to pretend that Trump and Trump supporters are the criminals making a mockery of the Constitution
Quoted for truth.

The hypocrisy of the Democrats is just becoming insane. Even though many crimes by Democrats hae been exposed, they are dismissed and not investigated. The country is falling apart. This is going to end badly, very badly at this rate.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Pinetop-Lakeside, AZ
2,922 posts, read 3,073,031 times
Reputation: 4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Bottom line: Trump tried to force Ukraine into colluding with him by extortion.


Yer damn right he should be impeached for that. The facts on the table make it an open and shut case, which is why the House will proceed quickly on impeachment, as they should.
You obviously did NOT read the transcript. I suggest you read it for yourself instead of lopping up the slob that the MSM has cherry picked and added to it before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

And yes, I have read the transcript in full myself.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:02 AM
 
3,221 posts, read 1,727,629 times
Reputation: 2197
Default 64% of this forum either doesn't read or are making arguments in bad faith

Anyone who thinks this is a nothingburger has not read the entirety of the documents at issue, and if they did and still somehow make that claim, they are making the argument in bad faith.

Trump's in serious trouble on this one, we'll see what the impeachment inquiry reveals. If the investigation reveals a clear link, that the President's decision to withhold aid at the time of the call was based upon Ukraine's willingness to play ball in investigating Biden and his son (setting aside for now the merits or lack thereof of such an investigation), then Trump has to be impeached.

If it doesn't, well then, Trump survives once again. However, to act like this is nothing, like there's no credible basis for an impeachment inquiry is highly disingenuous.

I highly encourage all to read the whistle blower complaint and the ICIG's (inspector general of the intelligence community) letter to the DNI on the complaint. See below.

Whistleblower Complaint

ICIG Letter
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:18 AM
 
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
17,436 posts, read 6,768,440 times
Reputation: 16306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Anyone who thinks this is a nothingburger has not read the entirety of the documents at issue, and if they did and still somehow make that claim, they are making the argument in bad faith.

Trump's in serious trouble on this one, we'll see what the impeachment inquiry reveals. If the investigation reveals a clear link, that the President's decision to withhold aid at the time of the call was based upon Ukraine's willingness to play ball in investigating Biden and his son (setting aside for now the merits or lack thereof of such an investigation), then Trump has to be impeached.

If it doesn't, well then, Trump survives once again. However, to act like this is nothing, like there's no credible basis for an impeachment inquiry is highly disingenuous.

I highly encourage all to read the whistle blower complaint and the ICIG's (inspector general of the intelligence community) letter to the DNI on the complaint. See below.

Whistleblower Complaint

ICIG Letter
I've read it all and it's more nonsense from a bunch of liars who have been concocting schemes and false allegations against Trump since Day One.


Anyone who takes anything the Democrats say seriously anymore needs to see a psychiatrist.


Also, why would we need to read the documents? Pelosi didn't need to before opening "formal impeachment proceedings."
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:20 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
6,453 posts, read 6,993,477 times
Reputation: 4658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Anyone who thinks this is a nothingburger has not read the entirety of the documents at issue, and if they did and still somehow make that claim, they are making the argument in bad faith.

Trump's in serious trouble on this one, we'll see what the impeachment inquiry reveals. If the investigation reveals a clear link, that the President's decision to withhold aid at the time of the call was based upon Ukraine's willingness to play ball in investigating Biden and his son (setting aside for now the merits or lack thereof of such an investigation), then Trump has to be impeached.

If it doesn't, well then, Trump survives once again. However, to act like this is nothing, like there's no credible basis for an impeachment inquiry is highly disingenuous.

I highly encourage all to read the whistle blower complaint and the ICIG's (inspector general of the intelligence community) letter to the DNI on the complaint. See below.

Whistleblower Complaint

ICIG Letter
For those of you who are piecing this together as seeing something there, please quote and highlite specific words and phrases in the transcripts and the complaint which shows that Trump put "pressure" and asked for an "investigation" as a [personal] "favor" and please show specifically where this is being done for political campaign purposes.

No innuendo,
No "read between the lines" conjecture
No, "what I think he meant is..."

Gives specifics, word for word.

i've read both the transcript and the complaint 3 times in it's entirety, and I still don't see. I see the word "concern" by the whistelblower but the "concern" doesn't seem to have any specific violations on Trump's part. it's missing any specific words and/or phrases to give it that sort of meat to hold up to any sort of legal or ethical standard.

If it's there, please point it out for the rest of us who can't see it.

This case is weaker than the Mueller report with the "obstruction" arguments.


And PLEASE do not start with "Trumpists" this or "Trump's base" that. Please give us specifics with all of the info that has been made public thus far.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Pinetop-Lakeside, AZ
2,922 posts, read 3,073,031 times
Reputation: 4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhallian View Post
Anyone who thinks this is a nothingburger has not read the entirety of the documents at issue, and if they did and still somehow make that claim, they are making the argument in bad faith.

Trump's in serious trouble on this one, we'll see what the impeachment inquiry reveals. If the investigation reveals a clear link, that the President's decision to withhold aid at the time of the call was based upon Ukraine's willingness to play ball in investigating Biden and his son (setting aside for now the merits or lack thereof of such an investigation), then Trump has to be impeached.

If it doesn't, well then, Trump survives once again. However, to act like this is nothing, like there's no credible basis for an impeachment inquiry is highly disingenuous.

I highly encourage all to read the whistle blower complaint and the ICIG's (inspector general of the intelligence community) letter to the DNI on the complaint. See below.

Whistleblower Complaint

ICIG Letter
The whistleblower did not hear anything first hand. That makes it hearsay and unadmissable as evidence in any court of law. Therefore it should not be given the credence it is getting.

Have you read the transcript of the phone call?
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:43 AM
 
Location: USA
30,713 posts, read 21,854,665 times
Reputation: 18914
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastwardBound View Post
I'd like to know how we knew the whistleblower's claim involved Biden. Who leaked that to the press initially? The whistleblower?
I think Fauxchahontis was the whistle blower
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Pinetop-Lakeside, AZ
2,922 posts, read 3,073,031 times
Reputation: 4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoOnMyMind View Post
Washington Post put out a false report saying Trump threatened to withhold money. That’s all it takes for people to believe it’s true. Just like Russian collusion they still can’t accept that it didn’t happen.

We’re reaching the point where facts don’t really matter, the end goal is to impeach Trump at all costs and they will use whatever justification they can come up with.
If they keep it up they may well wind up with some Unintended Consequences.
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