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Old 10-28-2019, 02:17 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,960,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
NOTHING stops workers from forming their own companies other than their willingness to sacrifice for it.
Of course it does. Worker co-operatives like Mondragon where workers are owners have to compete in the market which is rigged against such co-operatives.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:19 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,960,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Whenever the masses call for socialism and have their revolution, dictators emerge.

Why?

Most "socialists" simply want other people's stuff, and once they get power, they take everything they can.
That was not the case in Catalunya. In fact it was the Soviet Union, the nazis and the western democracies that all decided to unite against the socialists.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:20 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,611,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Of course it does. Worker co-operatives like Mondragon where workers are owners have to compete in the market which is rigged against such co-operatives.
How exactly is it rigged against them?
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
That was not the case in Catalunya. In fact it was the Soviet Union, the nazis and the western democracies that all decided to unite against the socialists.
Russia's revolution was all about workers taking control, socialism, and what happened?

The NAZI party promised workers taking control, and what happened?
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,431,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Can you provide a list of countries with successful socialist economies and free elections?
Yugoslavia didn't have free elections but it had an expansive economic democracy. The state only hedged the worker owned capital towards industrialization.

Socialism is about ownership of land and capital; it differentiates between private property and personal property.

Besides the aristocracy which was the land owning class, most of the preindustrial world required joint ownership by laborers.

Today capital is managed from large pockets of wealth that control the behavior of independent workers.

Personal ownership is fine though, so you could look at many cultures/states from before the 1700s. The less agricultural regions like Siberia and Northern Canada had more 'democratic' elements.

Modern states like Catalonia, Rojava, and Chiapas have a modern / industrial outlook towards socialism with a weak central government.

Socialism tends to deemphasize the state management but that becomes harder when you include a larger population.

I don't think socialism works in the long term, but I don't like capitalism either.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,431,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Russia's revolution was all about workers taking control, socialism, and what happened?

The NAZI party promised workers taking control, and what happened?
There were soviet councils but Lenin shut them down in a power grab.

Nazis weren't socialists, buy used their rhetoric to gain popularity.

On one hand the party officially called the car only Wiemar autobahn as 'Jewish Capitalism' but went onto to support their construction.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:32 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,960,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
How exactly is it rigged against them?
Its not a level playing field. Worker co-operatives have to compete against third world sweatshops in order to survive.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:33 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,611,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Yugoslavia didn't have free elections but it had an expansive economic democracy. The state only hedged the worker owned capital towards industrialization.

Socialism is about ownership of land and capital; it differentiates between private property and personal property.

Besides the aristocracy which was the land owning class, most of the preindustrial world required joint ownership by laborers.

Today capital is managed from large pockets of wealth that control the behavior of independent workers.

Personal ownership is fine though, so you could look at many cultures/states from before the 1700s. The less agricultural regions like Siberia and Northern Canada had more 'democratic' elements.

Modern states like Catalonia, Rojava, and Chiapas have a modern / industrial outlook towards socialism with a weak central government.

Socialism tends to deemphasize the state management but that becomes harder when you include a larger population.

I don't think socialism works in the long term, but I don't like capitalism either.
Capitalism has allowed for people working out of their garages to completely devastate large corporations.

Gates
Jobs
Bezos

To name a few.

Capitalism allows workers to become owners through stock investment.


What's the problem with capitalism other than big rewards and driving employment?
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:34 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,960,195 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Russia's revolution was all about workers taking control, socialism, and what happened?

The NAZI party promised workers taking control, and what happened?
No, the socialists lost the civil war in Russia. It was the nazis and the leninists in the Soviet Union who then teamed up with the western democracies to crush the socialists in Catalunya.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati
860 posts, read 1,357,653 times
Reputation: 1130
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Our taxes are so high due to socialist programs.
No they're not. My private health insurance premiums have placed monthly costs higher than rent for my one bedroom apartment. My city and state taxes don't support infrastructure, reduce the cost of post-secondary education, or provide healthcare. They actually use these taxes to subsidize large companies and developers. My federal taxes largely go to the DoD and other facets of the MIC.

What programs do you think are a tax burden to average working people like me?
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