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Old 10-28-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: USA
31,031 posts, read 22,064,322 times
Reputation: 19074

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Funny because as capitalistic as America is in the 21st century, we have the worst rates of economic upward mobility of any developed nation.

Capitalism has completely destroyed our environment, society and culture. It has robbed us of the future. It has made us incapable of being able to envision a better more just economic system. As Fredric Jameson put it.
The 30.2 Million American's that own small businesses would say "Hog wash".


https://www.fundera.com/blog/small-b...wth-statistics
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:18 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,958,731 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
As they claimed to empower workers.
Yes, thats why they crushed the workers who had organized in Catalunya. Teaming up with the nazis and the western powers because they had a common enemy in the socialists.

The question is why do you believe the stalinist propaganda? To claim that workers were in control in the Soviet Union and that they were a democratic society is just stupid. There was nothing socialist about that thuggish regime. Socialism was destroyed in the civil war
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:19 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
6,114 posts, read 4,606,165 times
Reputation: 10578
I'm not a millennial but the hypocrisy of implying or outright saying that they are the first generation to have some unsound ideas is bothersome.

After all, at some point in the not so distant past, there were people who thought segregated water fountains and slavery were good aspects of society. Unfortunately, there are still some of these people but their viewpoints have been relegated to the fringes where they belong (and let's hope it stays that way) but with some of the rhetoric coming out of the public square nowadays we can see the danger of bad ideas becoming mainstream.

For the record, while I think capitalism has its merits, perhaps stronger than other systems. However, unfettered capitalism that lacks an ethical or moral compass (and the corruption of plutocracy and oligarchy that often gets mistakenly interchanged with capitalism) is detrimental to a free and civilized society, just in a different way than unfettered communism.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle
5,117 posts, read 2,161,650 times
Reputation: 6228
When embracing socialism or communism you must have realistic expectations of the outcome and I find that most ponder these systems don't.


Fact of the matter is that you will NOT be living at todays American standard of living. Not going to happen. So if we currently collectively live on a scale of 8/10 now, socialism and communism will bring this down closer to 6/10. All one needs to do is look back into Eastern Bloc prior to the fall of communism for a realistic way of living. Yes everybody is equal but my oh my is it a sacrifice to pull this off....huge sacrifice.


We'll all probably be living in smaller homes where you are lucky to get one car per family, perhaps one cell phone per family and rations of food designed to just get by. Long gone are such things as going out to eat, taking the family vacation, excess savings, expensive clothes and items that we are now used to owning. These are shared and pooled living arrangements where every + is used to offset an -.


Repeat after me: GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE.


And therein lies the problem. Todays generation using an old popular phrase "wants their cake and eat it too." It's not going to happen under socialism or communism. No longer can you cry and dream of fancy lifestyles where the overages are paid by the government and/or that fictitious billionaire.


So as long as you are on board with this, great. But you better know what you are getting yourselves into before jumping in with both feet. Again, I don't see it because very few Americans embrace a lower standard of living.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,429,771 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
The 30.2 Million American's that own small businesses would say "Hog wash".


https://www.fundera.com/blog/small-b...wth-statistics
Who owns the majority of the capital?

Big banks and corporate funds. That decides the direction the market takes; these small businesses are either dying or playing a role as a supply chain for larger distributors.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:21 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,607,699 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Yes, thats why they crushed the workers who had organized in Catalunya. Teaming up with the nazis and the western powers because they had a common enemy in the socialists.

The question is why do you believe the stalinist propaganda? To claim that workers were in control in the Soviet Union and that they were a democratic society is just stupid. There was nothing socialist about that thuggish regime. Socialism was destroyed in the civil war
Practically every socialist is nothing more than a dictator in waiting.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,429,771 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete98146 View Post
When embracing socialism or communism you must have realistic expectations of the outcome and I find that most ponder these systems don't.


Fact of the matter is that you will NOT be living at todays American standard of living. Not going to happen. So if we currently collectively live on a scale of 8/10 now, socialism and communism will bring this down closer to 6/10. All one needs to do is look back into Eastern Bloc prior to the fall of communism for a realistic way of living.


We'll all probably be living in smaller homes where you are lucky to get one car per family, perhaps one cell phone per family and rations of food designed to just get by. Long gone are such things as going out to eat, taking the family vacation, excess savings, expensive clothes and items that we are now used to owning. These are shared and pooled living arrangements.


Repeat after me: GONE GONE GONE GONE GONE.


And therein lies the problem. Todays generation using an old popular phrase "wants their cake and eat it too." It's not going to happen under socialism or communism. No longer can you cry and dream of fancy lifestyles where the overages are paid by the government and/or that fictitious billionaire.


So as long as you are on board with this, great. But you better know what you are getting yourselves into before jumping in with both feet. Again, I don't see it because very few Americans embrace a lower standard of living.
This would all be great; Americans are too greedy and consumerist culture has been used to control large swaths of the buying population through credit/tax rules.

That being said I don't want distribution to be handled top down by the government, rather a collection of more independent communities/businesses that are less efficient than global supply chains.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:24 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,607,699 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Who owns the majority of the capital?

Big banks and corporate funds. That decides the direction the market takes; these small businesses are either dying or playing a role as a supply chain for larger distributors.
Let me guess, if the majority of Americans were millionaires, you'd be complaining about trillionaires having too much.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:26 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,607,699 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
This would all be great; Americans are too greedy and consumerist culture has been used to control large swaths of the buying population through credit/tax rules.

That being said I don't want distribution to be handled top down by the government, rather a collection of more independent communities/businesses that are less efficient than global supply chains.
Yep, what really bothers you is others having more than you.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:28 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,958,731 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Practically every socialist is nothing more than a dictator in waiting.
Workers were never in control in the Soviet Union so its foolish to believe their propaganda that they were.

Believing that workers should have a real say in the economy is the complete opposite of authoritarianism.
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