Warrens Medicare for all- $52 Trillion $$ (wages, illegal, border, solutions)

[rjshae]

You do know the US is the most cost-ineffective medical systems in the world, right? It cost $3.3 trillion in 2016. There's more than enough money in the system right now to implement medicare for all, and cut costs in the process. But we won't do that because Lawyers.

[Ponderosa]

M4A would work and it would likely be a significant cost savings on a total cost basis versus now. But I don't support it. It is a lazy approach - just expand Medicare to everyone. There are far more innovative and probably efficient methods than a M4A system to achieve universal health care. The public is not educated enough to understand them though, so you get slogans. When the Dems win next year, I hope that Congress will look more deeply into this issue and come up with a better idea.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

M4A would work and it would likely be a significant cost savings on a total cost basis versus now. But I don't support it. It is a lazy approach - just expand Medicare to everyone. There are far more innovative and probably efficient methods than a M4A system to achieve universal health care. The public is not educated enough to understand them though, so you get slogans. When the Dems win next year, I hope that Congress will look more deeply into this issue and come up with a better idea.

M4A wont save anything....


the current budget is 4+ trillion.....

2017 medicare was 691 billion...….prediction for 2020....963 billion......prediction for 2026....1.383 Trillion
actual Medicaid 2017 368 billion......prediction for 2020....450 billion......prediction for 2026....616 Billion

nearly a trillion dollars fy17.....and a predicted 2 trillion by 2026..and that is without changes covering only about 1/5th of the country

M4A will cost an additional 4+ trillion annually...and only cover as a 80/20 insurance..with many denials


number of Americans in full pledged nursing homes: 2.5 million...... the average cost Adult Day Health Care,.20,000 per year......assisted living facility 45,000 per year....nursing home (semi-private room),.85,000 per year.......nursing home (private room),.96,000
number of americans in all levels of nursing homes and assisted living....12 million (Annually)... 11,995,100 people receive support from the 5 main long-term care service; home health agencies (5,742,500), nursing homes (2,383,700), hospices (1,544,500), residential care communities (913,300) and adult day service centers (373,200)...............total cost of long term care 590 billion annually...and going up every year https://www.genworth.com/corporate/a...t-of-care.html

will nursing homes be covered under a singlepayer...or would that massive expense be classified as ''not covered''?? or is that nearly trillion dollar bill right back on the peoples back??


----------------------------
More than 26 million Americans have significant vision loss.((a total of 85 million Americans have potentially blinding eye diseases. )) (((hmmm more than 26 million americans are blind or going blind.....that's more than Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, and Austria COMBINED TOTAL population....)))......The cost of vision loss, including direct costs and lost productivity, is estimated to exceed $141 billion in 2017


----------------------------

number of Americans with heart disease: 29.2 million and of those..((Number of visits with heart disease as primary diagnosis: 17 million ))((Number of discharges with heart disease as first-listed diagnosis: 4.9 million)).....900,000 people in the USA die from heart disease annually....the cost 690 billion annually

will cardiac care be covered under a singlepayer...or would that massive expense be classified as ''not covered'' or "sorry you smoke, or eat too much" not covered?? that is the cost of CARE... again has nothing to do with insurance


---------------------------------

number of Americans with diabetes below the age of 60: 31 million....total cost 395 billion per year, and rising.....

will the ''government single-payer'' say.... nope, you got diabetes, because you are FAT, sorry not covered??


---------------------------------------------------------------------


Obesity rates among ALL OECD nations increased in recent years, with the highest rate in the U.S. at 37.3% -- which means one in 3 Americans is by definition obese.----366 billion per year
year
New Data Shows Obesity Costs Will Grow to $444 Billion by 2020 | Partnership to Fight Chronic Disease
http://www.fightchronicdisease.org/m...4-billion-2018


-----------------------------------------------------
number of Americans getting cancer (new cases) per year 1.9 million for a total of 25 million people being treated (fighting) each year...each year at least 570,000 die from cancer....the cost is over 250 billion. and expected to be 290 billion by 2020


---------------------------------------------



number of Americans with asthma: 27 million....Each day 11 Americans die from asthma.......annual costs 76 billion per year and increasing


that's over 130 million people with serious health risks..while some may overlap..its still a good one third of the country..and that right there is 2.6 trillion dollars (590b + 141B + 690b + 395b + 444b + 290b + 76b = 2.626 trillion)

that is 2.6 trillion on serious health risks.... now add in all normal visits, specialty visits, labs, knee/hip/rotator cuff/back surgeries ..........easily hit 5t to even 6t in actual CARE costs
......

this is from back in 09...
Approximately 6% of US adults reported an ambulatory visit for a primary diagnosis of a back or neck condition (13.6 million in 2008). Between 49% and 70% of all adults will experience a back pain episode during their lifetime, and, at any given point in time, 12% to 30% of adults have an active back problem. Estimates of the total expenditures on care is that approximately $90 billion is spent on the diagnosis and management of low back pain, and an additional $10 to $20 billion is attributed to economic losses in productivity each year.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3423501/

===========================




would you would be willing to address this "issue" with a step program (reforming medicare in steps) OR through a UBI??


why not do the Crawl, walk, run model...instead of jump in feet first model?????


with the crawl, walk, run model you can analyze to cost and ways to address it...with the jump in feet first model, you could crash the economy








under M4A/singlepayer/UHC the employer contribution goes away...laying those costs squarely on the minority of taxpayers

while I don't care for HC being employer sponsored (ties people to a job)..I certainly don't want to see the 80 million taxpayers get soaked with a 50K bill



If people and politicians "think" the M4A will do wonders, cut costs, and have unicorns dancing in the streets...then why not do it in steps

there is no guarantee M4A could lower any costs or overhead


it will cost an additional 4.1 trillion yearly (according to the CBO)..even Bernie said an ADDITIONAL 4.1 trillion to our budget...and increasing yearly with inflation


with all the denial of service that medicare has...with the staggering cost to the taxpayer


why not take it in steps

why go for mount Everest, when you can do the Rockies first




what we could do is... revise the current medicare and SS systems...yes we could do that:


How???:


1. how about (assuming passing this idea into law in 2020) lower the age for medicare to 60 starting 2020...…....(as most who want to retire don't because medicare is stuck at 65) adjust the cost factor (payroll tax) by 1% (1% is not going to hurt many peoples take home)...revise the formulary so there are less denials of service (too include knee and spinal disc replacements that currently medicare denies because the person is "too old")).... then analyze the cost before next step of lowering to 55 in ten years..then also increase the payroll tax from the new 2% to 2.5% or 3%...(based on the analysis of cost). revise the medicare benefit chart so doctors get their fair share, and so patients get less denial of care




take SS raise the FULL retirement age to 72, (prorated as) those entering the workforce (turning 18) in 2020 FRA is 68..those entering the workforce in 2026 is 69...entering 2032 is 70...etc 6 year steps
raise payroll from 6.2% to 7%...lower the reduced age of retirement (currently 62) to match the new eligibility age for medicare






this would fix the problem of people still working at 55/60/64 ONLY because of health ins...they would retire if they could get medicare….this would also get you a better idea of the overall cost to revise it even more in the future




it makes more sense than to abolish "private insurance" and shoot your whole load on a pipe dream, especially with politicians like Warren not even wanting to admit that the middleclass WILL see a big tax increase (at least she now admitted it will cost 5.3 trillion annually)






----edit for additional thought-----










OR...another avenue of approach could be UBI...Candidate Yang's model...(though the math needs to be validated/tweaked a little)


The concept of UBI is certainly a nice thing....and it is certainly the smartest, most logical of all the wild ideas of the fascist liberals


for example:
I work, have a wife, and my daughter turns 18 (still in high school) next month
and even though I make 70k/yr a extra 3k/month (3 people over 18 in the household) would be a great thing......especially if it is like welfare (not taxed) and not considered additional income (Like SS)


and it answers the problem of affordable medical care..affordable education...affordable childcare...and student loans debts...…...how you say?

well let's look at a example...
I work, have a wife, 4 kids and my oldest daughter turns 18 (still in high school) next month and even though I make 70k/yr...……..
UBI would be an extra 3k/month (3 people over 18 in the household)……….

that's 1k for my daughter PER MONTH for college (local CC is offering 500 per semester)
that's 1k for daycare/school activities/wife's student loan PER MONTH
and 1k more for a health insurance Cadillac plan (I pay 600/month) so that takes care of my family premium

imagine that...UBI out does bernies/beth/Harris's plans of M4A/free college/free daycare/studentloan payoff







like I said..I think the UBI plan is certainly better that any of the others that the democrats are offering




so what say you ......do Medicare in steps... or a UBI....

but don't shoot the whole economy on one pipe dream of "free dis and dat and de uder ding"






---edit---sorry this was long, but I was typing my thoughts and I kind of just let my fingers do the talking

[Vf6cruiser]

Originally Posted by Rakin

Plus over 2 million Jobs lost. It would devastate the US Economy and raise taxes and costs enormously for EVERY American.

Just like the Obamacare lies but 100 times even bigger. If she admits to $52 Trillion, can you imagine the actual real costs ?

https://twitter.com/yohiobaseball/st...99866783764486

She doesn't have to worry about middle class........they would all be living in tents after she got done with them........she is a train wreck looking for someplace to happen

[GreenBouy]

Originally Posted by lovecrowds

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5960112/

Even the most leftist and wealthy countries like Norway have large co-pays for services.

The quality would collapse in America with a universal healthcare scheme. It works in Norway and some other countries because they are small and very healthy countries.

These Universal schemes aren't nearly as much of a mess if the population is very healthy. What works in a country with a population of Colorado or Minnesota will never work for a country of this size with so many people trying to get as sick as possible as earlier as possible with their unhealthy habits.

American's in general are just far too unhealthy compared to other countries to a "Medicare for All" scheme.

Not only will it cost a fortune and cause the country to possibly go bankrupt in a decade, but the quality of care is going to be very similar to the typical Department of Motor vehicles.

Unlike a vast majority of countries, there is a large percentage of the population with preventable chronic conditions in their 20s and 30s already who will overwhelm the system.

You are naive if you don’t think people on their 20’s and 30’s who have chronic diseases are not being covered under Medicare or Medicaid already, at the same doctors and hospitals your are with your private health insurance. The systems are already in place, the funding is already being spent via private healthcare, govt programs, etc.... the trick is putting all under one umbrella and it being managed properly.

[Rakin]

Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser

She doesn't have to worry about middle class........they would all be living in tents after she got done with them........she is a train wreck looking for someplace to happen

I hope she gets the nomination.

The Democrat 2020 Party will continue it's downward spiral into oblivion.

[Frank DeForrest]

Warren is spouting populist rhetoric for votes with medicare for all, and suspect if elected, she'll drop it like its hot and implement something that benefits her corporate sponsors. You know, like Obama did.

[JMD60]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

OR...another avenue of approach could be UBI...Candidate Yang's model...(though the math needs to be validated/tweaked a little)


The concept of UBI is certainly a nice thing....and it is certainly the smartest, most logical of all the wild ideas of the fascist liberals


for example:
I work, have a wife, and my daughter turns 18 (still in high school) next month
and even though I make 70k/yr a extra 3k/month (3 people over 18 in the household) would be a great thing......especially if it is like welfare (not taxed) and not considered additional income (Like SS)


and it answers the problem of affordable medical care..affordable education...affordable childcare...and student loans debts...…...how you say?

well let's look at a example...
I work, have a wife, 4 kids and my oldest daughter turns 18 (still in high school) next month and even though I make 70k/yr...……..
UBI would be an extra 3k/month (3 people over 18 in the household)……….

that's 1k for my daughter PER MONTH for college (local CC is offering 500 per semester)
that's 1k for daycare/school activities/wife's student loan PER MONTH
and 1k more for a health insurance Cadillac plan (I pay 600/month) so that takes care of my family premium

imagine that...UBI out does bernies/beth/Harris's plans of M4A/free college/free daycare/studentloan payoff







like I said..I think the UBI plan is certainly better that any of the others that the democrats are offering




so what say you ......do Medicare in steps... or a UBI....

but don't shoot the whole economy on one pipe dream of "free dis and dat and de uder ding"






---edit---sorry this was long, but I was typing my thoughts and I kind of just let my fingers do the talking

So, as a libertarian, I'm always intrigued by the UBI. A true UBI eliminates all other entitlements, and Yang's proposal has people opting in to the UBI or opting to remain with the entitlements they currently receive. Eventually, all other entitlements would be eliminated and everyone would receive a UBI.

The biggest pro to a UBI v. traditional entitlements is the elimination of an earnings cap in order to continue to receive the UBI. Currently, entitlements such as subsidized housing and food stamps (among others) force recipients into keeping their earnings low enough to continue to receive them -- this has had a terrible impact on several generations of recipients now.

I'd like to see a true UBI one day, but I suspect it'll never happen.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by JMD60

So, as a libertarian, I'm always intrigued by the UBI. A true UBI eliminates all other entitlements, and Yang's proposal has people opting in to the UBI or opting to remain with the entitlements they currently receive. Eventually, all other entitlements would be eliminated and everyone would receive a UBI.

The biggest pro to a UBI v. traditional entitlements is the elimination of an earnings cap in order to continue to receive the UBI. Currently, entitlements such as subsidized housing and food stamps (among others) force recipients into keeping their earnings low enough to continue to receive them -- this has had a terrible impact on several generations of recipients now.

I'd like to see a true UBI one day, but I suspect it'll never happen.

I like UBI...but Yang's math needs to be tweaked (or you could say "validated")


there are 257 million people in the USA over 18

if we "give" $1000/month to each of those 257 million , that is 257 billion monthly, or 3.08 trillion annually

yang's idea of a 10% VAT will earn about 900 billion.... so that is a 2.184 trillion deficit....

that 2.184 trillion ANNUAL deficit has to be addressed

now if we exempt seniors (those already getting SS) that brings it down to 212 million people to get 1000/monthly (212 billion monthly or 2.544 trillion annually.... still a 1.644 trillion annual deficit based on Yang's 10% VAT

now if it eliminates all welfare (actual welfare and section 8 and food stamps and wic and a few others) (which it CAN NOT..it wont happen) that is about 600 billion...… so we still have a 1 trillion annual debt additional to the current 1t annual deficit


like I said..I think the UBI plan is certainly better that any of the others that the democrats are offering








what do you think about reforming medicare and ss IN STEPS???

[Open-D]

Originally Posted by NeutralParty

Yep, I think this is the end for Elizabeth Warren. This is going to blow up in her face over the weekend on the Sunday morning talk shows.

In theory, medicare for all would be wonderful. But how to responsibly pay for it while as to not raise taxes on the middle-class...I just don't know that it can be done.

Why is NOT raising taxes on the MIDDLE Class important? They are exactly the people who would benefit the most, and, therefore, upon who, the bulk of the funding-burden should fall.