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Old 11-04-2019, 12:40 PM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,852,612 times
Reputation: 18148

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
That statement is a good reason why no one should pay attention to anything you say.

You refer to an article in the official magazine of the AAAS known as Science about the measles vaccine. The article is full of good information for anyone who has an open mind and wants to take the trouble to learn. I thank Kat for calling this to our attention.

FYI, the AAAS has been around since 1848. Its had presidents of its society that have included: John Wesley Powell; Margaret Mead; Charles Pickering; and Stephen Jay Gould. Much more reputable people than some of the crackpots who oppose vaccination.

I know you think you know more than all those people above know together.

Most of us know otherwise.
What is the purpose of this thread? Let's be realistic. To beg and bully people into getting vaccinated. It says so in the very FIRST POST!!!!!!!!!!!

It's an advertisement. The OP doesn't want any discussion or dissenting opinions or debate. It's a thread to advertise a product.

You should investigate M Mead. She was a VERY interesting person.

 
Old 11-04-2019, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,969 posts, read 40,935,301 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I'm a non-responder to the Measles vaccine & I will never be able to be immune.

I don't want to be in a vaccinated herd, where I can both transmit & be infected by babies too young to be vaccinated that have no maternal antibodies from their vaxxed moms.

Only the mother having had the Measles will allow a baby to benefit from maternal antibodies.

I prefer the healthier, unvaccinated population as my herd, as should anybody who is a parent to children too young to be vaccinated. Your vaccinated herd is inferior.
Not producing antibodies to a vaccine does not 100% mean you are susceptible.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962729/

"The lack of antibody responses even after booster vaccination does however not automatically mean lack of protection and increased susceptibility to clinically significant disease."

Vaccinated mothers do provide antibodies to their newborns. The level is lower and protection is lost a few weeks earlier compared to women who have had measles but having had measles does not provide permanent protection. That protection is lost by the time the baby is about six months old.

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/208/1/10/796786

That is why everyone who has no medical contraindications should be vaccinated against measles: to reduce the risk to those infants until they can be vaccinated themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
If unvaccinated people keep killing vaccinated people, then what exactly is the point of being vaccinated ... If at the end of the day; it is the unvaccinated people who are still alive?
Well, it is not the unvaccinated people who are still alive.

During the 2017-2018 flu season about 80% of the 186 children who died were unvaccinated.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season...-2017-2018.htm
 
Old 11-04-2019, 12:55 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,512 posts, read 6,023,263 times
Reputation: 28830
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
All those vaccinated people are the reason that unvaccinated people do not get vaccine preventable diseases in the US.
Oh no! Not according to your mainstream media!

Quote:
Unvaccinated people with whooping cough may be spreading it to those with vaccinations! https://fox2now.com/2019/10/08/st-lo...hooping-cough/
Not only are you not protecting us; your vaccines aren't protecting you either! Just how much protection will a sick, vaccinated person afford me, lol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
If unvaccinated people keep killing vaccinated people, then what exactly is the point of being vaccinated ... If at the end of the day; it is the unvaccinated people who are still alive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The risk of a serious adverse reaction to a vaccine is about one in a million. The risk of dying from measles is about one in a thousand.
Yeah, as long as we ONLY consider epidemiology rife with bias. The only thing you have that is effectively obstructing the truth: That vaccine injuries are not rare; just rarely recognized or reported ... Is to say the injuries are not caused by the vaccine. Since you lack any evidence for a different etiology; your statement is unsustainable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No one will make you vaccinate. Those of us who know vaccines are safe and effective will still counter your effort to persuade others not to vaccinate.
There is no such thing as a safe vaccine under current US policy & program. Vaccinate at your own risk & you may soon join the ranks of ex-vaxxers, that grow on a daily basis.

The number of people I know who regret vaccinating far exceeds the number of people I know who regret not vaccinating.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
What is the purpose of this thread? Let's be realistic. To beg and bully people into getting vaccinated. It says so in the very FIRST POST!!!!!!!!!!!

It's an advertisement. The OP doesn't want any discussion or dissenting opinions or debate. It's a thread to advertise a product.

You should investigate M Mead. She was a VERY interesting person.
That is an outright falsehood. Here is the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
New research adds to what we know about measles wiping out immune memory, while showing that measles vaccine does not. Another good reason to get the measles (actually MMR) vaccine.
https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...9LdOMyAaDB3mes
The purpose was to inform people of this new research.

I have no idea what you're referring to regarding Margaret Mead.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:09 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,512 posts, read 6,023,263 times
Reputation: 28830
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
That is why everyone who has no medical contraindications should be vaccinated against measles: to reduce the risk to those infants until they can be vaccinated themselves.
I've had the MMR FOUR times & I can't reduce the risk of myself FROM those infants, nor can I reduce the risk TO those infants.

Their only hope is to have an unvaccinated mom who had the measles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Well, it is not the unvaccinated people who are still alive.

During the 2017-2018 flu season about 80% of the 186 children who died were unvaccinated.
Which gives zero information at all, about the vax status of who GAVE them the flu. They died from secondary pneumonia; a shameful thing for a first-world country to have allowed happening.

It's likely the vaccinated are infecting everybody; post LAIV flu vax shedding can last up to 11 days. Some herd.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I've had the MMR FOUR times & I can't reduce the risk of myself FROM those infants, nor can I reduce the risk TO those infants.

Their only hope is to have an unvaccinated mom who had the measles.



Which gives zero information at all, about the vax status of who GAVE them the flu. They died from secondary pneumonia; a shameful thing for a first-world country to have allowed happening.
Talk about moving the goalposts! And as an RN, you should know that not all deaths can be prevented, even in a "first world" country. Some pneumonias are viral, with no antiviral agents to treat them. How do you know all 148 (80% of 186) died of secondary pneumonia?
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:14 PM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,852,612 times
Reputation: 18148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
New research adds to what we know about measles wiping out immune memory, while showing that measles vaccine does not. Another good reason to get the measles (actually MMR) vaccine.
https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...9LdOMyAaDB3mes
You consider this NOT telling people to get the vaccine?
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:15 PM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,852,612 times
Reputation: 18148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post

I have no idea what you're referring to regarding Margaret Mead.
Um, comment was not directed to you. I was quoting another poster.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,219,944 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
You consider this NOT telling people to get the vaccine?
Do you consider it "beg(ging) and bully(ing)"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
Um, comment was not directed to you. I was quoting another poster.
Good For You. Anyone may respond to any post on CD, and you mentioned me in the post, making untrue claims about me.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 11-04-2019 at 01:38 PM.. Reason: punctuation
 
Old 11-04-2019, 01:30 PM
 
16,214 posts, read 8,342,413 times
Reputation: 19093
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
That's really interesting considering the push to increase number of flu and pneumonia deaths to encourage people to get the vaccine.

But it's a catch-22:

If they list his death as pneumonia, they have to list the death as caused by the immunosuppressant drugs. And that's a big no no for the drug manufacturer.

If they list the cause of death as RA, they ADD to the RA stats which will encourage more people to take the RA drugs.

Pneumonia vaccine lost this round.

It's a strange strange world we live in.

Choose the death, choose which drug gets support.

I am not exactly sure what you are driving at, but I think we agree on some aspects.

Listing RA as the first cause of death is likely inaccurate, as RA did not kill him. That said, the medication given to treat RA had such a negative effect on his immune system, it likely led to him having an uncontrollable infection.
Now I have no clue whether Frey also had a flu shot or vaccine against pneumonia somewhere along the way, but one can get various strains of pneumonia.
Nosocomial infections people get while in a medical facility can be deadlier than any bugs free floating outdoors.

As to your point about "death as caused by the immunosuppressant drugs. And that's a big no no for the drug manufacturer.", so many of the biologics people are treated with today can have such an effect.
So when we look at Risk vs. Reward again by taking XYZ for something that is debilitating or terminal (drug taken to extend time but not a cure) that is one thing.

But I recall seeing some ad for toenail fungus a while back, and to paraphrase, it was touted as treating the problem from the inside, at the root of the problem.
Presumably it was more effective and quicker at getting rid of "unsightly fungus". However one of the advertised warnings was risk of cancer or infection that could be life threatening.
I wouldn't care if my line of work required bare feet or sandals (i.e. lifeguard) to where everyone looked at my fungus every day.
I am not going to risk my health/life for something so superficial/cosmetic.
Yet many of the drugs that reduce inflammatory reactions the body has (GI, joints, and dermal) do in fact carry such risks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post

It would be lovely if we could look at an individual and predict who will have an adverse reaction to a vaccine or any medication. We are not there yet; maybe in the future.

Your anecdote is the reason that the evaluation of risk versus benefit has to be individualized. Frey chose to be treated for his RA, probably because he wanted to keep working.

Death certificates actually list the cause of death in the reverse order you described. If he died from pneumonia, that goes first. The colitis would be a contributing cause, and the immunosuppressive treatment for the arthritis as a step in a cascade:

Pneumonia due to immunosuppression due to [whatever] treatment for rheumatoid arthritis.

Edited to add: it looks like complications of ulcerative colitis were the major cause of death.


You did not point out where anything I said was inaccurate or misleading. Yes the day may come where individuals can be screen/tested to make sure a vaccine/medication will not be harmful, but that is unlikely in my view. The cost alone would be a massive use of limited resources. So we do the clinical trials and studies along with monitoring of patients reactions to various medical treatments.
All that is fine with me, as it serves most people well.

As to Frey, I have little doubt his family were very adamant about having RA as the primary cause of death. They were very upset with the medical care he received to try and save him. While I know very little about the case beyond what has been reported, the question is, was his RA drug being continued even when he fell ill.
If so, did it's continued use contribute to the inability to stop the progression of the more serious and life threatening condition they were trying to treat.
I just hope when everything is determined, it is not some out of court settlement with a gag/non disclosure order.


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