Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Part of it has to do with how psychology and psychiatric professionals in America tend to be set up. Many people aren't going to talking about some of the impact of what Black people have been through. That's the point. That would require admitting that it has had some impact, and alot of people won't do that. For some people, it doesn't serve their purpose. And some people who go into psychology with a certain demographic in mind.
I ask this question because of there was something I asked in a thread about St. Louis vs Lincoln. My last post touched upon mental health. I also thought about this. Many Black Americans living in places like St. Louis, tend to have easier access to liquor and illegal drugs (hard stuff like heroin) than to psychiatric/psychological resources. Black men generally don't go to the doctor as much as they should, even with the money is there. Alot of Black men, who likely need help the most, hardly ever go to counseling or to a psychiatrist. I often wonder how many murders take place because you have people who are angry and haven't dealt with their anger properly. How many people who feel so hopeless that they will kill someone over anything.
And furthermore, something else. Black teenagers are seeing the more rapid growth in suicide rates. That isn't being talked about at all, not even among Black people. This is an issue for Black people, not just Whites.
I thought about this. When some White teenagers shoot up high schools, yes, they get punished, and rightly so. At the same time, debates about violent video games, psychotropic medicine, and mental health are discussed. When Black people, especially men, shoot or stab one another, no one talks about mental health issues in the Black community. You hear about "those people are savages, lock them up or bring back the death penalty".
I think one reason suicide among Blacks is rarely talked is could be lack of empathy. Some people might be apathetic. Some might have a mentality of "the less Blacks around the better".
Mental health in the Black community is something that needs to be discussed more.
White thugs are spoken about the same way. It has more to do with the type of crimes. Everyone understands street thuggary well enough. School shootings are a new phenomenon that we don't understand.
black males not seeking psychiatric treatment may be why they are hardly ever school shooters. Most are on psych drugs.
Black people have been traditionally been taught to "suck it up" or "get tough". I also think there is a bit of distrust towards psychiatrists. Mental health, as it applies to Black Americans, isn't discussed much outside of the Black population. I wonder if part of it has to do with a feeling of "Blacks don't have problems, Blacks are a problem".
Suicide among Black youths is going up. And it's been going up for some time. However, it is going unnotied. I think in the Black community, it is something we don't like to talk about very much. Some of us have gone under the myth of "only White people commit suicide". Alot of times, it isn't noticed, recognized, and sadly, in some cases, some people don't care. I'll get into more about that later.
Could it be passed down from poverty when there was not an option? I ask because many rural whites feel the same way. A lot of rural people regardless of race rely on folklore more than Drs, especially for the mind.
Some people still today in 2020 believe that mental illness is caused by demons.
White thugs are spoken about the same way. It has more to do with the type of crimes. Everyone understands street thuggary well enough. School shootings are a new phenomenon that we don't understand.
black males not seeking psychiatric treatment may be why they are hardly ever school shooters. Most are on psych drugs.
School shootings aren't all that new. In fact, the deadliest school shooting ever took place in the 1920s, in Bath, Michigan.
And no, Black males aren't as likely to shoot up schools. However, mass shootings by Black males have taken place in other areas.
Not as many Black men shooting up schools, but many Black men are killing each other. Alot of murders take place during arguments. A sign of severe anger issues. Alot of people who don't get help end up doing bad things to loved ones or people close to them.
Well, I personally believe that homosexuality has been naturally occurring in human populations almost as long as humans have existed. Whether or not its acted upon and what conditions that it is acted upon I don't know. I would imagine that if a person was a KING, and kings are often revered as gods, and they were born homosexual.....well....who can override his wishes? Also, if people want to find evidence of homosexuality in African history I am sure they can site examples of this, just like when talking about the enslavement of blacks in America, someone can find data on blacks who were slave owners in America. These things may be true, but were they the norm? Everything you find in the human experience you will find has manifested in the African human experience as well.
I am not going to claim to KNOW what African traditions were 1000 years ago before Europeans arrived. I have not really studied homosexuality in any context, African history or American history. I don't know African history as well as I have been taught and shown European history from the Greeks to the Romans and homosexuality or homosexual acts were not uncommon. Whatever the origin of being against homosexuality in Africa is....it has been that way for a long time now. I don't know and will never know how prevalent it was in Africa because I was not there....what I know now is that it is frowned upon and that is what I am going with as being part of the African culture and experience. The official African position is against homosexuality.
My personal view is anything that you are sexuality attracted to, yet cannot reproduce from an act of copulation with that being, is not a healthy attraction. None of this is religious, just my reasoning. A man should not lay with beast because they cannot reproduce a beast. A man should not lay with a man because a man cannot reproduce a man with a man. A man should not lay with an infant or prepubescent child of either sex, as they cannot reproduce a child from the union. A man can lay with a women....and reproduce (ultimately 50/50 probability) what he is attracted to...which is a women. Even when it comes to inter-racial relationships. If you are a black man only attracted to white women.....you cannot reproduce a white women by laying with her. Its not a healthy attraction if you cannot reproduce what you are attracted to via sex. Now, certainly inter-racial relationships are healthy if the attraction is not RACE, unless ones attraction is to their own race, in which case is fine, since they can sexually reproduce their own race. I say none of that with emotions. I don't care what people choose to do but, again, ignoring religion, I from what I can tell is the purpose of life is to create life and perpetuate the species and the bloodline. If one cannot reproduce life, and even if they can, they can fulfill their purpose by helping another life move forward....to reproduce. Homosexuality does not play into the prime biological directive of life perpetuating life. Again, what do I care? More women for me if a man is gay and he not interested in women....lol. However, I do understand NOI position on homosexuality.....but I do not agree with any type of hate. I do not agree with belittling or denigrating them. Some cannot help how they are, but I do believe that society is promoting homosexuality now.
In regards to being brainwashed.....we are all brainwashed. Nearly everything that we think we KNOW has been told to us. We have no way of corroborating most or any of it. Every country brainwashes its people to support the "system" of power to one degree or another.
Finally, I never said that the NOI is perfect. They are far from perfect. My point about them is that nobody does it better. No black organization puts out leadership that speaks for black people, un-apologetically and articulately and as truthfully as they do. I am not looking for anything else from them. That is what resonates with me and I understand that a lot of people don't like them....but for me.....the leadership and spokespersons carry themselves in a way that makes me, as a black man, proud. However, that does not mean that you are going to see me in a bow tie on the corner selling been pies....lol or regurgitating anything I hear them say. They resonate with me because we, independently, have come to the same conclusions on many things as it relates to the black experience in America. I like and admire Rastafarians too for the same reason....but I never smoked a spliff or wore dreadlocks. Just respect.
I understand your views just was giving some historical context. I have taken a lot of courses on African history and history in general outside of the European tradition, but all of it is influenced by colonialization in a way.
In regards to sexual behaviors, I agree that homosexuality is something that has been in existence for a long time. So are so-called sexual perversions in heterosexual life.
The only issues I have in regards to the rhetoric of NOI and others like them is the idea that they place the "blame" for homosexuality in black Americans on white people. That is not true from an historic perspective. Many of them also claim that there was no homosexuality on the continent of Africa and that also is not true. People can have their personal views of it as you described above in regards to reproduction but, to me, acting like it is unnatural or something forced upon us in a lie and kind of delusional.
I mentioned I agree with you that I get much of what they are saying in regards to the way that our men and women should carry themselves and especially be self sufficient. But I think that many people who agree with this line of their rhetoric don't know as much about their religious practices or the lengths that their followers go through to be fully brainwashed into their worldview. Main thing that my family get upset with me about in regards to NOI is that I personally feel that if you joined them officially, you are apt to not think for yourself or consider anyone else's POV. Anything you speak with them about, they will flip back to Farrakhan or Elijah Muhammad. One of my husband's cousins is a member and they are very close so we see him monthly when we go to Chicago to see my in-laws. He pushed me into a conversation about Islam this past holiday season to where he got kind of perturbed at me (I typically don't speak with him about NOI because all of them are "sensitive" to me - note I don't get emotional over history/religion like a lot of people do and I assume people can have an academic discussion until they prove to me that they cannot and this relative has proven a few times that he cannot). Every time he asked me about something and I responded, he brought up what "Farrakhan" said - "Farrakhan teaches us...." "Farrakhan says..." I got kind of smart alecky and asked him if he thinks anything other than what Farrakhan teaches or says lol. He then started talking about Elijah Muhammad. I told him that we cannot have a conversation on the subject we were speaking about and changed it to something more light. My husband, who is probably much more like yourself - he also admires aspects of NOI and Rastas, after his cousin left he also expressed how crazy it was that everything his cousin said/says is based on Farrakhan or Elijah Muhammad. It is also interesting to me that NOI teaches sobriety and this cousin smokes weed and drinks beer (he always comes over to have a drink with my husband when we visit) lol.
In regards to sex being only for reproduction, I think that is a personal perspective and it, even within heterosexual relationships is kind of a shakey being that there are both men and women who are not fertile. You mention as well you are in your 50s/around 50, if your wife/partner is in her 40s-50s as well, oftentimes at that age people are not looking to have children, but they still have sex. Sexual behavior to me is something that is biological and an urge. People have urges and they do push the envelope IMO those who are prone to that to want new/more pleasurable experiences. Homosexuality IMO is about attraction. As long as people are mature enough (and IMO people aren't mature enough until around 16-18 years old) to have a consensual sexual relationship, I don't have a problem with who they have sex with or are attracted to. But I don't think it needs to be in songs/media all the time and I don't think people need to speak all the time about what they do with their partner. I'll note I've heard women speak of men eating their a$$ for a long time lol. Since I was in college and I went to an HBCU. But when I first heart it in a song (the one about eating it like groceries) I was pretty appalled. IMO some things are not meant to be shared with everything and that includes the inner workings of one's sexual relationships.
But I understand your view in regards to attraction and your views on healthy/unhealthy attractions. I think it is important though that we understand that our personal views are not the same as other people. For me an unhealthy relationship is one that is volatile or violent, what people today call "toxic" where abuse occurs. I know some gay men and lesbian women who have been in long term relationships for a long time and have a healthy relationship. I know many inter-racial couples who are in healthy relationships. Attraction in and of itself is a personal thing and IMO we should be tolerant of people's attractions as long as they are with adults who consent to those relationships. But as noted above, nobody needs to know all your sexual business. I have a cousin who is a lesbian who is in her 60s and her and her wife have been together probably for about 30 years. She has never told anyone she is a lesbian lol. But we all know she is. I think today people make a big deal of announcing all their sexual attractions and behaviors and it is unnecessary. If you are a man and bring home a man as your partner, I wouldn't have an issue with it. It is unusual though so I can understand the need to tell relatives/friends in advance. But for me personally, I don't care as long as someone is treating someone well. The main thing I have an issue with today is the proliferation in media of people speaking too much about sex and sexuality. Like Youtube channels, TV programs, etc. The stuff that folks say is a "gay agenda." I personally don't believe in gay or feminist agendas but I heavily monitor my 11 year old because I don't want her influenced by media too much about ideas that if she thinks a woman is pretty for instance, that means she's gay. As a little girl I was a tomboy and kids are prone to get obsessed about things they see in media. I can imagine if I was a girl today that I would think I was transgendered if I watched a bunch of YouTube channels about being trans. I literally did want to be a boy and called myself a boy and asked my friends to refer to me as a boy between ages 6 and around 9. Today many parents would go along with that and take their kid to a psychologist and start a "transition" and such and for me, that is based specifically on media influence of both the child and the parents. Children should be left to grow and mature naturally. I make sure to tackle these subjects with my kids and impart in them skepticism about media representations and IMO many parents today do not do this.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 01-10-2020 at 07:42 AM..
I understand your views just was giving some historical context. I have taken a lot of courses on African history and history in general outside of the European tradition, but all of it is influenced by colonialization in a way.
In regards to sexual behaviors, I agree that homosexuality is something that has been in existence for a long time. So are so-called sexual perversions in heterosexual life.
The only issues I have in regards to the rhetoric of NOI and others like them is the idea that they place the "blame" for homosexuality in black Americans on white people. That is not true from an historic perspective. Many of them also claim that there was no homosexuality on the continent of Africa and that also is not true. People can have their personal views of it as you described above in regards to reproduction but, to me, acting like it is unnatural or something forced upon us in a lie and kind of delusional.
I mentioned I agree with you that I get much of what they are saying in regards to the way that our men and women should carry themselves and especially be self sufficient. But I think that many people who agree with this line of their rhetoric don't know as much about their religious practices or the lengths that their followers go through to be fully brainwashed into their worldview. Main thing that my family get upset with me about in regards to NOI is that I personally feel that if you joined them officially, you are apt to not think for yourself or consider anyone else's POV. Anything you speak with them about, they will flip back to Farrakhan or Elijah Muhammad. One of my husband's cousins is a member and they are very close so we see him monthly when we go to Chicago to see my in-laws. He pushed me into a conversation about Islam this past holiday season to where he got kind of perturbed at me (I typically don't speak with him about NOI because all of them are "sensitive" to me - note I don't get emotional over history/religion like a lot of people do and I assume people can have an academic discussion until they prove to me that they cannot and this relative has proven a few times that he cannot). Every time he asked me about something and I responded, he brought up what "Farrakhan" said - "Farrakhan teaches us...." "Farrakhan says..." I got kind of smart alecky and asked him if he thinks anything other than what Farrakhan teaches or says lol. He then started talking about Elijah Muhammad. I told him that we cannot have a conversation on the subject we were speaking about and changed it to something more light. My husband, who is probably much more like yourself - he also admires aspects of NOI and Rastas, after his cousin left he also expressed how crazy it was that everything his cousin said/says is based on Farrakhan or Elijah Muhammad. It is also interesting to me that NOI teaches sobriety and this cousin smokes weed and drinks beer (he always comes over to have a drink with my husband when we visit) lol.
In regards to sex being only for reproduction, I think that is a personal perspective and it, even within heterosexual relationships is kind of a shakey being that there are both men and women who are not fertile. You mention as well you are in your 50s/around 50, if your wife/partner is in her 40s-50s as well, oftentimes at that age people are not looking to have children, but they still have sex. Sexual behavior to me is something that is biological and an urge. People have urges and they do push the envelope IMO those who are prone to that to want new/more pleasurable experiences. Homosexuality IMO is about attraction. As long as people are mature enough (and IMO people aren't mature enough until around 16-18 years old) to have a consensual sexual relationship, I don't have a problem with who they have sex with or are attracted to. But I don't think it needs to be in songs/media all the time and I don't think people need to speak all the time about what they do with their partner. I'll note I've heard women speak of men eating their a$$ for a long time lol. Since I was in college and I went to an HBCU. But when I first heart it in a song (the one about eating it like groceries) I was pretty appalled. IMO some things are not meant to be shared with everything and that includes the inner workings of one's sexual relationships.
But I understand your view in regards to attraction and your views on healthy/unhealthy attractions. I think it is important though that we understand that our personal views are not the same as other people. For me an unhealthy relationship is one that is volatile or violent, what people today call "toxic" where abuse occurs. I know some gay men and lesbian women who have been in long term relationships for a long time and have a healthy relationship. I know many inter-racial couples who are in healthy relationships. Attraction in and of itself is a personal thing and IMO we should be tolerant of people's attractions as long as they are with adults who consent to those relationships. But as noted above, nobody needs to know all your sexual business. I have a cousin who is a lesbian who is in her 60s and her and her wife have been together probably for about 30 years. She has never told anyone she is a lesbian lol. But we all know she is. I think today people make a big deal of announcing all their sexual attractions and behaviors and it is unnecessary. If you are a man and bring home a man as your partner, I wouldn't have an issue with it. It is unusual though so I can understand the need to tell relatives/friends in advance. But for me personally, I don't care as long as someone is treating someone well. The main thing I have an issue with today is the proliferation in media of people speaking too much about sex and sexuality. Like Youtube channels, TV programs, etc. The stuff that folks say is a "gay agenda." I personally don't believe in gay or feminist agendas but I heavily monitor my 11 year old because I don't want her influenced by media too much about ideas that if she thinks a woman is pretty for instance, that means she's gay. As a little girl I was a tomboy and kids are prone to get obsessed about things they see in media. I can imagine if I was a girl today that I would think I was transgendered if I watched a bunch of YouTube channels about being trans. I literally did want to be a boy and called myself a boy and asked my friends to refer to me as a boy between ages 6 and around 9. Today many parents would go along with that and take their kid to a psychologist and start a "transition" and such and for me, that is based specifically on media influence of both the child and the parents. Children should be left to grow and mature naturally. I make sure to tackle these subjects with my kids and impart in them skepticism about media representations and IMO many parents today do not do this.
NOI is a religious organization and to me, all religions brainwash their followers.....if they are true adherents and practitioners of the religion. In all religions people quote their messengers or scriptures. I am sure you have heard Christians mention Jesus and quote scripture. As a person who grew up the son of a preacher.....this is neither new or strange to me to. It's the nature of religious worship. When one is deep into a religion, they are a "follower" and are not "free thinkers". Religions do not promote free thinking....but rather, faithful adherence to "the word" given to them to follow. Hence, NOI followers are not "atypical" as it relates to followers of a given religion....because they are all predicated upon acceptance of the words and faith. Thus, they just repeat the words of their messengers. Their messenger just does not happen to be my messenger....and there in lies the difference. There are weak followers and adheres of every religion. Christians typically fall way short. There are many preachers who lay with women in the congregation, while preaching against it. There are priest who molest children. It's the nature of mankind to fall short where there are humans, regardless of the religion, there will be people within the religion who will behave in a way which contradicts its teachings. That is not unique to NOI.
I don't really know what "Natural" means. If NOI says that homosexuality is not "natural", I would first need to know what their definition of natural is. I really do not know what their "official" position is on it or their official view of homosexuality in Africa. I would have to hear it from their so called messengers, like Farrakhan. My position is that homosexuality is "atypical". Pedophilia is "atypical". Bestiality is "atypical". Yet, the TRUTH is that some people are BORN wired this way, thus, it occurs naturally meaning without human creation. Its organic....but I do believe that it is a mutation and mutations occur naturally in nature. Mutations are part of the process of natural selection. Left free, the trait would breed itself out because homosexuals would not reproduce via sex with the same sex not producing offspring, in theory.
In regards to heterosexual perversions, I was talking in terms of when did this become popular with African Americans? I said it in the context of blacks being white culturally and the context of the NOI spokesman saying that homosexuality is growing in the community partly because of cultural trends. I am sure those things have been going on in the privacy of peoples relationships for a long time...however, I dare say they were not common, especially among African people. I don't know this, but I believe this. I mean, I am old school. A women might want to satisfy her man by giving brain and licking the eye....but one thing for sure is that I don't want to follow behind that man....and all the others, as her man. A younger guy might not care.....but if a women is good at all those type things when I meet her, then I can't wife her. It's a personal choice and being old school I can't have a women like that for serious relationship. Now, I have HAD women like that and I did not stop them from doing what they wanted to do....because I never asked them to do it. Hey...if it makes them happy.....but I lost some respect for them as being potential wife material. That is just ME, though. I am old school.....because I am not returning the favor....lol. If they want to find someone who will....oh well.
That said, I am not tripping over any of it. I wish well and the best for everybody, gay, strait, "brainers", "no brainers"...lol, black, white, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc. I have no ill wishes toward anybody or group. If I could wave a magic wand I would wish for health and happiness for all. That said....some people are made unhappy by other people being made happy.....so you can never have happiness for all.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-10-2020 at 10:31 AM..
Let’s talk about this one for a minute. The proper term would be “English,” but whatever. How do you feel about others speaking a foreign public? Does this indicate a lack of assimilation?
Not as many Black men shooting up schools, but many Black men are killing each other. Alot of murders take place during arguments. A sign of severe anger issues. Alot of people who don't get help end up doing bad things to loved ones or people close to them.
Which goes back to the idea of mental health being looked down upon and how it can be problematic if not checked.
"Harriet" and other foreign blacks playing American roles
Let's talk about the movie "Harriet." It received a lot of backlash for the lead actress. Cynthia Erivo, who is British and of Nigerian Descent. Did you see the movie? What did you think? Did it deserve the backlash or is it hyperbole (exaggeration)? How do you feel about foreign blacks playing these types of roles? What about non-ADOS blacks in general?
We could talk about other similar situations Uzo Aduba, who is best known for playing Crazy Eyes on "Orange Is The New Black" was cast to play Shirley Chisholm in an FX limited series. Uzoamaka (her full name) Aduba grew up in New England, but she's also of Nigerian Descent.
Ruth Negga who is bi-racial (Ethiopian and Irish), born in Ethiopia and raised in Ireland being cast to play Mildred Loving in "Loving."
Kofi Siriboe, you might know him from "Queen Sugar." He's of Ghanaian descent, but hails from Los Angeles. Some thought his role was problematic being that he's ethnically African and they were our first slave owners.
Let’s talk about this one for a minute. The proper term would be “English,” but whatever. How do you feel about others speaking a foreign public? Does this indicate a lack of assimilation?
This is a free country. People are free to speak whatever language that they choose in public. Being bilingual or multilingual is an asset in today’s world.
This place has long been a mix of different groups who have retained various aspects of their cultural heritage and adopted aspects of the existing culture here. Over time people become an even more melded into the national fabric. Let people be.
This is a free country. People are free to speak whatever language that they choose in public. Being bilingual or multilingual is an asset in today’s world.
This place has long been a mix of different groups who have retained various aspects of their cultural heritage and adopted aspects of the existing culture here. Over time people become an even more melded into the national fabric. Let people be.
As long as you can speak English when communicating with me, I really don't care what language anyone else speaks in public or private. Now, let's say hypothetically I'm hanging out with two foreigners and I'm assuming that we are supposed to be hanging together....if they are going on among each other in their native tongue, leaving me out KNOWING that I don't speak that tongue.......well, that's inconsiderate. Now a little statement here and there in [insert whatever language] is no big deal, I'm referring to being totally ignored. Big difference.
As for conversations in a foreign language among COMPLETE STRANGERS? Doesn't bother me at all. I don't know them, and I'll probably never see those individuals again, so why should I care?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You’re in America, Speak American!
