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Old 02-10-2020, 08:15 AM
 
Location: West Coast U.S.A.
2,911 posts, read 1,359,544 times
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Why is it that so many other countries are able to provide medical care for their citizens and, if necessary, visitors, immigrant workers, etc., yet the "greatest country in the world" can't figure out how to do that? Is it really that hard, or is it possible that special interests have control of our government and our national dialog?

 
Old 02-10-2020, 08:17 AM
 
18,802 posts, read 8,469,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
Why is it that so many other countries are able to provide medical care for their citizens and, if necessary, visitors, immigrant workers, etc., yet the "greatest country in the world" can't figure out how to do that? Is it really that hard, or is it possible that special interests have control of our government and our national dialog?
Big medical business profits!
 
Old 02-10-2020, 08:24 AM
 
13,954 posts, read 5,623,969 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
Why is it that so many other countries are able to provide medical care for their citizens and, if necessary, visitors, immigrant workers, etc., yet the "greatest country in the world" can't figure out how to do that? Is it really that hard, or is it possible that special interests have control of our government and our national dialog?
Research any common procedure, test, service, etc. Do a nitpicky, deep drill into what that entire thing (whatever you chose) actually costs, then look at what is charged. If the profit margin exceeds 50%, which it will in almost every case, then examine if there is, at any level, government meddling that somehow restricts supply, erects barriers to competition, and/or removes the consumer's knowledge and choice from the equation.

Run that thought experiment on any 5, 10, even 50 things you pay for within the healthcare market, and you'll find your answer...trust me.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 08:24 AM
 
7,269 posts, read 4,212,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
They tried Medicare for all in Vermont... It didn't last long... They ran out of everyone's money and couldn't raise taxes ...



This is where magical "MMT" comes in. Endless supply of free money that zombifies the US and turns everyone into a ward of the federal govt. The exact opposite of what the founders intended.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:02 AM
 
18,802 posts, read 8,469,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
This is where magical "MMT" comes in. Endless supply of free money that zombifies the US and turns everyone into a ward of the federal govt. The exact opposite of what the founders intended.
Hamilton might have understood, Jefferson opposed.

Our money is our people's money and a national utility. If a central money creation program benefits our broad middle class without creating onerous inflation, IMO it should be seriously considered.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:06 AM
 
Location: The 719
18,013 posts, read 27,460,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77 View Post
Most of my posts are in the investments section. When a stock goes public for the first time, there is a regulated process by which an S-1 is filled out and information is required to be disclosed to potential investors so they can make their own decisions.



What's disconcerting for me in this election is that there is an opportunity for something truly wonderful sounding. Universal healthcare for all. Elimination of red tape between providers. Instant access to any doctor. We are all cared for.



Honestly, regardless of political stripes, I think if that were the end of it, there wouldn't be a person in the country that would not want that.



Yet this is a huge gamble for a would be new CEO of America. First off, we're talking about a single customer now suddenly responsible for a staggering proportion of the US GDP. All of those bills are currently someone else's income. That's a ton of complexity. Yet, there is no posting talking about the potential issues of this. Simply candidates noting they are for coverage and intermixing whether or not this is a good policy to endeavor into vs whether or not they have the chops to pull off the program in addition to the many other things a busy President will need to be doing.



Of course, the Feds have substantial power to draw upon, but in the closest alternative, there is the care promised our military members from the VA. The next would be for care provided for prisoners in Federal care. Another vantage point may be for places like Cook County Hospital in Chicago, where care is still charged for, but everyone knows this is where you go when you don't have insurance.



Have any met the threshold of improvement over the current standard of care offered in the private sector? My father, despite having VA benefits if he wanted them, chose to stay in the private sector. His anecdotal choice, but it bears the question of why would someone turn down free care over paying considerable money for an alternative?


From a national basis, there's also the question of medical improvements. The United States currently leads the world in medical improvements each year. Diseases that were death sentences as a child now can be treated with only rare fatalities and under ever increasingly improving conditions. Is that stemming from centralized work done at the CDC in conjunction with VA/prison systems? Or, is this being primarily lead by private companies in the hopes of discovering a new way to sell a cure to the government. Will this R&D process change and how so?


Finally, what would be the plan to scale care facilities for the millions of additional people that currently do not have health insurance or have a emergency only insurance and a likely backlog of issues they'd like to get taken care of if there was only the means to do so. How do we get the massive increase in doctors, nurses and specialists needed to pull this off? Will the care amounts they are charged with now sway from President to President? Could I start with dialysis for kidneys and then later have it turned off, only now I live in a country where there is only one provider and solution?


I guess what I've been wondering is if this very worthy goal of universal coverage for all is how is it best achieved? Via fanfare and a grand pronouncement of sweeping changes.....or incrementally, problem by problem, with progress hard to detect on the daily, but overall, somehow, modern medicine and its distribution of care slowly continue to progress.


Here's the text:



https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...9%22%5D%7D&r=7


There are many scary aspects of this bill but it is not that long of a read to see for yourself. It is important to note that this is NOT free. Instead, it gives everyone in the country an all you can eat buffet access to medical services that can be provided for by anyone with certification. John Hopkins and Mayo get paid the same Artillery's Garage and Senior Care Center, Dentistry and Glasses specialists.



You do not need to be a citizen.
It will be considered unlawful for sale of any insurance of procedures covered in the bill. You will not be allowed any treatment alternatives.
Transport will be provided for low income and disabled people
The Secretary of State will provide you with what benefits will or will not be covered going forward
Cost sharing will be limited to those 200% and above of the poverty line
All entities that become certified may bill the plan
You cannot stop providing benefits
Audits of the Board carrying out the program are only to occur every 5 years
Native American tribes will have additional and equal weighting to each State
Equipment prices and selections will be made annually by the Secretary
Workers Compensation will be replaced with direct billing of cost reimbursement to employers, whether actual or in common association with work being performed
Soylent Green.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:10 AM
 
5,163 posts, read 3,086,041 times
Reputation: 11048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Hamilton might have understood, Jefferson opposed.

Our money is our people's money and a national utility. If a central money creation program benefits our broad middle class without creating onerous inflation, IMO it should be seriously considered.
MMT and limitless funding — sure, why not? The long run will cure all ills, or as Keynes famously quipped “In the long run we are dead”.

In reality I think Dr. Keynes would be appalled by the mind share that MMT is garnering.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Haiku
7,132 posts, read 4,767,560 times
Reputation: 10327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry-Koala View Post
Why is it that so many other countries are able to provide medical care for their citizens and, if necessary, visitors, immigrant workers, etc., yet the "greatest country in the world" can't figure out how to do that? Is it really that hard, or is it possible that special interests have control of our government and our national dialog?
No, special interests would love it if we provided more medical care as they love the money it brings to their industry. What special interests hate is affordable health care because that means less profit for them.

But the reason why the US cannot provide healthcare for all of its population the way other countries do is because it will cost more money and the good citizens of the US don't want to pay for it. We would much rather see people be sick than heaven forbid, fork over a few more dollars to help those who cannot afford it.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:40 AM
 
18,802 posts, read 8,469,715 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
MMT and limitless funding — sure, why not? The long run will cure all ills, or as Keynes famously quipped “In the long run we are dead”.

In reality I think Dr. Keynes would be appalled by the mind share that MMT is garnering.
MMT has garnered little so far in the US, save a lot of deserved skepticism. When China's economy and then middle class pass us, then more will consider it.
 
Old 02-10-2020, 09:44 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,006 posts, read 44,813,405 times
Reputation: 13707
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
No, special interests would love it if we provided more medical care as they love the money it brings to their industry. What special interests hate is affordable health care because that means less profit for them.

But the reason why the US cannot provide healthcare for all of its population the way other countries do is because it will cost more money and the good citizens of the US don't want to pay for it. We would much rather see people be sick than heaven forbid, fork over a few more dollars to help those who cannot afford it.
Regarding the bolded text... Exactly.

I've suggested the following... Put it to a national referendum. Ask everyday middle class Americans if they're willing to pay a 40+% effective federal income tax plus a 20%-25% NATIONAL VAT tax on top of that to get M4A.
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