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Old 03-07-2020, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,454,529 times
Reputation: 9169

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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
sanders is NOT for the worker


sanders will have everyone in proverty...except himself
Fake news^
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:04 PM
 
Location: USA
5,738 posts, read 5,413,276 times
Reputation: 3668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
And your argument is based on...what? Kill jobs, destroy the middle class and make everyone dependant on government? In case you missed it-wages are up under the Trump administration-especially those of the lowest-level wage earners.

I'm more of a moderate, so don't complain about democratic-socialist stuff and point at me. I'm just saying, everything you're arguing has been tried several times already. Most post-colonial nations have had conditions just like you prefer, where the richest few control everything, and most of them are dumps. The USA became great because it used to be about being fair making sure everyone got a chance. Now we're going the way of Latin America where blatant corruption is accepted and the upper class manipulates everything to their preference.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:11 PM
 
Location: USA
5,738 posts, read 5,413,276 times
Reputation: 3668
I challenge you to find a nation that has lower taxes than the US but has a similar or better quality of life. I could list about 20 where the opposite is true.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,608 posts, read 26,234,469 times
Reputation: 12631
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Single payer healthcare would cover EVERYBODY.
Sure, because why should my employer continue to pay for my excellent health insurance when we can substitute a really ****ty government-run system for it and shift the cost to working Americans?
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:33 PM
 
Location: USA
18,423 posts, read 9,050,994 times
Reputation: 8462
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Sure, because why should my employer continue to pay for my excellent health insurance when we can substitute a really ****ty government-run system for it and shift the cost to working Americans?
Your healthcare plan at work is already a massive de-facto tax on your income. The money your employer pays for your healthcare plan is money that would otherwise appear in your paycheck. Think about it: your healthcare plan is part of your negotiated salary. If a national healthcare plan were enacted, your employer would no longer have to pay for your healthcare plan, and they would have to pass the savings along to you, otherwise it’s a huge pay cut. If your employer pockets the difference, you find another job and then politely tell you employer to go f**k himself.

Yes, your taxes would go up to pay for universal healthcare. Obviously. Nothing is free. But if your additional taxes are equal to the extra amount in your paycheck (from your employer no longer having to pay for healthcare), then what’s the problem? As long as your disposable income remains the same, who cares?
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,454,529 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Your healthcare plan at work is already a massive de-facto tax on your income. The money your employer pays for your healthcare plan is money that would otherwise appear in your paycheck. Think about it: your healthcare plan is part of your negotiated salary. If a national healthcare plan were enacted, your employer would no longer have to pay for your healthcare plan, and they would have to pass the savings along to you, otherwise it’s a huge pay cut. If your employer pockets the difference, you find another job and then politely tell you employer to go f**k himself.

Yes, your taxes would go up to pay for universal healthcare. Obviously. Nothing is free. But if your additional taxes are equal to the extra amount in your paycheck (from your employer no longer having to pay for healthcare), then what’s the problem? As long as your disposable income remains the same, who cares?
Not only that, but a majority who work and have employer subsidized insurance have deductibles so high they dare not use it
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Madrid
1,049 posts, read 1,598,275 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
You really don't BELIEVE that, do you? If Sanders is "for workers"-why does he insist on raising our taxes and giving our money to those that DON'T work? Why does he demand that we pay for health care and education for criminal aliens? Why does he insist on attacking the businesses that provide our jobs?

Warren would say the same stupid crap that Bernie does. But she was doing it to advance and enrich herself. What is a little scary about Bernie is that he might actually believe the stupid stuff that comes out of his mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
How is Sanders for the American worker? He is going to cripple them with suffocating taxes to pay for all the free stuff, and he is going to reward illegal immigration to compete with low-wage earners.
You guys obviously haven’t done a shred of research to back up your claims. First off- it’s pretty d@mn rich that you say “will there ever be a moderate who works for the working class” and then write anyone who actually does just that as a nut job. I will give you that, at least in the current political landscape of the USA, Bernie is far from moderate, but the fact that you write them off in such a way demonstrates that you don’t care that they’re working for the working class anyway. Our government is so far to the right economically that anyone who tries to institute policies that help the common man is written off as an extreme left winger. Which party supports a liveable minimum wage and which doesn’t? Stop with the fear-mongering and trying to spin a politician who actually is trying to help the common man into what your own party’s politicians actually are. I know you won’t actually read any of these sources, you’ve been convinced to vote against your best interests and I’m sorry you’re too worried about “owning the libs” to figure that out. Check out this website Your federal taxes won’t change until you make over $250,000, and at that point we are obviously not talking about the working class anymore. Do research to back up your claims, don’t spew right wing propaganda bull**** about how Bernie is going to take your money and give it to deadbeata, and attack the businesses that provide you health care.

There is a 4% Medicare for all premium, but this removes the financial burden from making your employer pay per year for your health care (read thousands of dollars), which is great for small business, and removes the personal financial burden of paying deductibles and copays. So if you all really believe in trickle down economics, your employer won’t be on the hook to provide you health care anymore. You also won’t be trapped at a job just because you need the insurance. and in theory will pass that savings onto you in the form of a pay raise, and 4% of your taxable income is a lot less than most Americans, and their employers are paying currently. Now I know you’re going to come at me with some sort of mental gymnastics and “BUT YOU ACTUALLY TRUST THE GOVERNMENT??”” comments, but seriously- read some factual information for once about people who actually want to help the common person.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,761 posts, read 1,705,554 times
Reputation: 2541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Your healthcare plan at work is already a massive de-facto tax on your income. The money your employer pays for your healthcare plan is money that would otherwise appear in your paycheck. Think about it: your healthcare plan is part of your negotiated salary. If a national healthcare plan were enacted, your employer would no longer have to pay for your healthcare plan, and they would have to pass the savings along to you, otherwise it’s a huge pay cut. If your employer pockets the difference, you find another job and then politely tell you employer to go f**k himself.

Yes, your taxes would go up to pay for universal healthcare. Obviously. Nothing is free. But if your additional taxes are equal to the extra amount in your paycheck (from your employer no longer having to pay for healthcare), then what’s the problem? As long as your disposable income remains the same, who cares?
The bolded above is what bothers me. I have a friend who I've had this exact conversation with a number of times. In theory, and on paper, you and my coffee friend are absolutely correct, however, I'm more of a cynic, or perhaps realist, I guess.

What coercive mechanism/mandate will the government be able to legally/constitutionally force on employers to make them pay you more to make up for their lack of health care spending on you? You talk about "negotiated salary" like it's a normal thing between a business and employees. Not so much in my opinion for the majority of low/mid level employees. I actually am one who negotiated my salary with my employer when I started my job 16 years ago....but looking around me, and even at the company I'm at now, I'll bet 90% of the employees interview for a job, the company offers them a salary, they either take it, or walk out the door....that's the end of the "negotiation". Unless you're in an in demand field, or have some really specially needed work history etc..., you're unlikely to have much clout in this "negotiation". Keep in mind, I'm not talking about executives or other people higher up the food chain....I'm talking rank and file workers. Clerks, data entry, customer service, stockers and pretty much any other rank and file who is not in a union.

It's all well and good to dream of telling your current employer to "go fxxk himself", as you so eloquently put it, when he/she doesn't give you a raise you know your deserve...but it's a lot harder to actually do it when the rubber meets the road, and you face an uncertain financial future right after when you're walking out the door.

Corporations and even smaller companies hold a lot of the cards in salary matters. Forcing them to pay you more, dollar for dollar for health care savings, or even close, won't be quite as easy in practice as it looks on paper and in theory.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:52 PM
 
21,431 posts, read 7,378,906 times
Reputation: 13233
Will the Democratic party ever return to a moderate position that supports working Americans?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
And without prosperous businesses, we have no working class. And in spite of all your faux drama, we don't have burning rivers, thalidomide babies or Love Canals any longer-because we can have a healthy environment and successful businesses...
You keep ignoring the obvious: Republican policies bent upon maximizing corporate profits at the expense of people have been hell bent upon undoing all of our regulations. You can see it yourself in the current policies of the Trump administration (not that the two Bush administrations nor the Reagan administration were substantially any better).

The Republicans recently tried to dismantle or neuter the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and have always been against workplace safety, product safety and informative product labeling, safe tools and machinery & convenience appliances and a fair minimum wage, among other things. You know this.

Don't pretend before all of us that you give a damn about the working Americans when your entire argument is all about protecting banker's rights and your standard bearer is a professional swindler who takes care of his rich backers first and actively works to destroy health care protections for millions of ordinary hard working Americans.

Your arguments don't speak to our concerns. Neither you nor he care about us.
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,368,614 times
Reputation: 9616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Your healthcare plan at work is already a massive de-facto tax on your income. The money your employer pays for your healthcare plan is money that would otherwise appear in your paycheck. Think about it: your healthcare plan is part of your negotiated salary. If a national healthcare plan were enacted, your employer would no longer have to pay for your healthcare plan, and they would have to pass the savings along to you, otherwise it’s a huge pay cut. If your employer pockets the difference, you find another job and then politely tell you employer to go f**k himself.

Yes, your taxes would go up to pay for universal healthcare. Obviously. Nothing is free. But if your additional taxes are equal to the extra amount in your paycheck (from your employer no longer having to pay for healthcare), then what’s the problem? As long as your disposable income remains the same, who cares?
not a chance..

you really think because employers wont have to pay 15k to health insurance, that you are going to get a 15k raise...keep dreaming
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