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Old 05-31-2020, 09:34 AM
 
27,534 posts, read 16,018,410 times
Reputation: 18959

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Abolish police?
Citizen review board of police complaints?
Amy Klobuchar could be used as an example of what Not to do
https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/amy-kl...prosecute-cop/
Quote:
Democratic presidential candidate and potential vice presidential pick*Amy Klobuchar failed to get charges*brought against the police officer involved in George Floyd’s death*
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,105,746 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by saltine View Post
Abolish police?
Citizen review board of police complaints?
Police are under civilian control.

That's all you, brother. 100% you.

You need to elect city/township/county government that will effect meaningful reforms.

Yes, that means you might have to muster up the moral courage to vote for someone who is a member of a political party not of your liking. They may be a Democrat, Republican, Communist, Socialist, Libertarian (well, I don't think Libertarians are smart enough to run candidates), Green, Independent, Constitution, or Socialist Worker's Parties.

You can always vote them out after the reforms have been effected.

You need to get rid of police unions.

There is no good reason why cops can't be under a personal services contract.

The contract spells out in detail the rights, duties and obligation of the city and the officer, has a pay schedule and benefits and penalties when either party violates the contract.

After a year, you have a sit-down and if they're an asset to the community, maybe you go out on a limb and sign them to a 2 or 3 year contract or even a 5 year contract that has pay increases and opportunities for advancement and maybe better benefits.

If they're a turd, they will have violated the contract and been terminated without recourse.

If they're mediocre, you know, a badge-wearer, someone who puts on a badge and drives around for 8 hours saying, "Hey! Look at me in my really cool car with lights and a siren and I got this shiny badge and a gun" then tell them to have a nice life.

You need to insist on education.

Shocking as it may be, there are still many departments that require no college, and there are many others that only require a few semester hours.

About 30 years ago, there was a study that showed a correlation between education and criminal activity, disciplinary action and police brutality, which was replicated by other studies.

The higher the level of education, the less likely an officer will engage in criminal activity, have less disciplinary actions, fewer complaints and no police brutality.

I have a BS in Law Enforcement, which is rare. Most cops have an Associate in Criminal Justice, which is not the same as law enforcement, because it's focused on probation/parole, or crime scene investigation.

You need better psychological evaluations to identify racists, bigots, those who are short-tempered or overly aggressive, prone to lying and criminal activity, or will abuse power.

People with low self-esteem are generally meek, but give them a badge and they morph into Cardinal Richelieu.

Better background investigations, too. Most departments only verify employment/educational history and criminal record. That don't get it.

They need to be getting the high school yearbook and interviewing those people, along with neighbors and co-workers to find out what someone is really like, especially under pressure.

Those are the things that need to be done. Will it happen? Probably not.

The least that should be done is restricting qualified immunity to those officers who compiled 100% with the US Constitution, State constitution, case law and department policies.

Any violation results in being haled into court and having a judgment and a lien slapped on their house.

Funny thing is, the threat of a multi-million dollar jury verdict and a lien on their home is probably the most effective remedy to make them think twice.
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:41 PM
 
8,924 posts, read 2,527,695 times
Reputation: 4682
Funny that in this cycle, Democrats had 2 former really awful prosecutors running for president and both are currently being considered for VP.....
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:57 PM
 
13,853 posts, read 5,564,410 times
Reputation: 8533
I agree with Mircea on the issue being 100% the problem of the people, but that's as far as our agreement goes, because police are nothing more than a low level face of the almighty government everyone wants. The voters invest the government with a monopoly on force and violence, and wholeheartedly believe in not just the necessity of that monopoly, but the righteousness of it as well. Uhm, someone has to be the embodiment of that force.

That's why there are local police, and county police, and state police, and federal police, and a few thousand different investigative services. What good is having the monopoly on force and violence if you are not constantly threatening or exercising it? Obedience isn't voluntary, boys and girls...it's mandatory. Someone has to be the rod that is not spared.

When you vote for this program, that tax, this "investment", that regulation, etc etc...you vote for more centurions to enforce obedience. Pick a party, even the dopey Libertarians (quasi-Pubs who want legal weed and hookers), and they all agree that whatever their plans, they'll need enforcers/thugs/goons to ensure that their will be done.

Cannot fathom why people cannot understand that POLICE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. The government is the police. They are one and the same. This Floyd fellow was killed for false documents (alleged passing counterfeit bill I believe). Eric Garner was killed for selling loose cigarettes. Tony and Somnuek Thangsongcharoen had their store seized by 20 armed agents of the IRS and Dallas police, and their entire lives destroyed in a matter of 4 hours because the IRS said they owed $31k in taxes. Martha Stewart spent 3 months in jail for lying about something that never actually happened.

In every case, the cops were the projection of the bureaucrat's demand for obedience and tribute. Black, white, Asian...whatever. Doesn't matter. When a politician says jump, you say how high or the thugs that bureaucrat hired will make you sorry you didn't. Voting for different bureaucrats isn't the solution to a problem caused entirely by every last stinking bureaucrat in existence.
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Old 05-31-2020, 12:58 PM
 
4,445 posts, read 1,443,501 times
Reputation: 3609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Police are under civilian control.

That's all you, brother. 100% you.

You need to elect city/township/county government that will effect meaningful reforms.

Yes, that means you might have to muster up the moral courage to vote for someone who is a member of a political party not of your liking. They may be a Democrat, Republican, Communist, Socialist, Libertarian (well, I don't think Libertarians are smart enough to run candidates), Green, Independent, Constitution, or Socialist Worker's Parties.

You can always vote them out after the reforms have been effected.

You need to get rid of police unions.

There is no good reason why cops can't be under a personal services contract.

The contract spells out in detail the rights, duties and obligation of the city and the officer, has a pay schedule and benefits and penalties when either party violates the contract.

After a year, you have a sit-down and if they're an asset to the community, maybe you go out on a limb and sign them to a 2 or 3 year contract or even a 5 year contract that has pay increases and opportunities for advancement and maybe better benefits.

If they're a turd, they will have violated the contract and been terminated without recourse.

If they're mediocre, you know, a badge-wearer, someone who puts on a badge and drives around for 8 hours saying, "Hey! Look at me in my really cool car with lights and a siren and I got this shiny badge and a gun" then tell them to have a nice life.

You need to insist on education.

Shocking as it may be, there are still many departments that require no college, and there are many others that only require a few semester hours.

About 30 years ago, there was a study that showed a correlation between education and criminal activity, disciplinary action and police brutality, which was replicated by other studies.

The higher the level of education, the less likely an officer will engage in criminal activity, have less disciplinary actions, fewer complaints and no police brutality.

I have a BS in Law Enforcement, which is rare. Most cops have an Associate in Criminal Justice, which is not the same as law enforcement, because it's focused on probation/parole, or crime scene investigation.

You need better psychological evaluations to identify racists, bigots, those who are short-tempered or overly aggressive, prone to lying and criminal activity, or will abuse power.

People with low self-esteem are generally meek, but give them a badge and they morph into Cardinal Richelieu.

Better background investigations, too. Most departments only verify employment/educational history and criminal record. That don't get it.

They need to be getting the high school yearbook and interviewing those people, along with neighbors and co-workers to find out what someone is really like, especially under pressure.

Those are the things that need to be done. Will it happen? Probably not.

The least that should be done is restricting qualified immunity to those officers who compiled 100% with the US Constitution, State constitution, case law and department policies.

Any violation results in being haled into court and having a judgment and a lien slapped on their house.

Funny thing is, the threat of a multi-million dollar jury verdict and a lien on their home is probably the most effective remedy to make them think twice.
You just posted in another thread that all cops lie. How did you get past the psychological evaluation?

Under this series of requirements, cops would either be dead very quickly or ineffective. They would all be worried about losing their houses so they would hesitate in the crucial moments. Cops would have to be right 100% of the time. criminals would just need resolve to get the drop on them. Nobody would ever become a cop.
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Old 05-31-2020, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,198 posts, read 22,263,933 times
Reputation: 23827
Police violence has become their first resort, not their last, in far too many trivial encounters.

While some of it is racial, it's much deeper and more pervasive than racism alone.

Cops do it because of reasons I'm not qualified to answer, but whatever those reasons are, they all know they can get away with the use of extreme violence with no consequences, no threat of punishment, and no need for accountability.

It's pervasive when a citizen of a small town where everyone knows each other can die at the hands of a cop for simply asking why he was stopped. Or what he was doing outside his house in the middle of the night.

It's serious when a cop can deal death to anyone for any reason. They are killing old people, men, women, children, pets, bystanders, livestock, of all races and nationalities.

And it is not a new phenomenon. This wholesale brutality has been going on for decades. Why is it allowed to exist?

I believe most police officers still don't see the use of violence as being their first choice. I believe only a relative few use it. But the good officers allow it to exist with their silence.

It is so pervasive I think that only the most extreme corrective measures will ever work to stop it now.

That may require any prospective policeman to surrender some of his civilian rights when he takes the job, much like those who enlist in the military surrender some of theirs.

Once in the military, everyone is under military jurisdiction, not civilian. Military justice is different because it needs to be different to keep an army from becoming a large lethal mob. Those different laws are drilled into every recruit in boot camp, and they will apply to the person for the entire time they are in military service.

So it should be with our police forces. The laws they must serve under have to be special because the police have a special duty to the people. Their special laws would have to apply to all their superiors, and at least partially to all others who are in our justice system to be effective.

One law could be: Immediate arrest upon commission, with no bail. If more than one officer is involved, all are arrested.

Another could be the creation of a special court solely designed for speed, to handle these instances.

I believe it would be best if all these were state laws, not federal. As states are different from each other, I think the causes for police abuse are not the same everywhere.
But federal police officers should have a unified set of Federal laws that could be similar, as they too coy mmit the abuse.

The reason why riots erupted in 27 different cities all over the nation is because our citizens have been promised over and over that something will be done about this. All the words have been as empty as a bucket with no bottom. Nothing is ever done.

As long as nothing ever changes, there will be no change. But once some policemen go straight to jail for suspicion of wrongdoing, and when some of them go on to prison, within a year of the committed abuse, things would change very quickly.

I believe de-escalation would increase as quickly in civilian response to police challenges as well. Along with the academy training, the selection of recruit officers, and a lot of repeated offenses from both the cops and the civilians.

I also think these special laws would eventually decrease the frequency of police suicide and the suicide-by-cop that happens so much now. I expect it would increase police responsiveness to common events as well over time.

It has to be a systematic repair job to our nation's law enforcement. If it demands the surrender of some specific freedoms by them, so be it.
There is nothing in the law that cannot be undone.

If, over time, our police become what they once were- men and women who are serving their fellow citizens to keep peace and order, doing their job with a servant's heart and dedication, I would hope those special courts would die on the vine, un-needed.

The cops were once pretty good and disciplining other cops. The job itself demands a lot of discipline every day. Everyone would relax a lot more if, when a cop came to settle a minor dispute, it is presumed there won't be violence used to settle it.
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:04 PM
 
Location: The Woods
18,337 posts, read 26,427,339 times
Reputation: 11335
A citizen review board is a good start. One that can refer charges against police to a grand jury to bypass reluctant prosecutors. No more qualified immunity. If an officer violates civil rights they need to pay personally.
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Old 05-31-2020, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,304,172 times
Reputation: 14459
Stop accepting the paradigm that says agents of a certain group have rights that others don't (aka statism).

It's that simple, folks.

Floyd died less than a week ago and people are going crazy.

We just had the 50th anniversary of Kent State and not one person has ever done a second of prison time after the slaughter of 4 innocents.

Are you getting the picture my friends?
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:14 PM
 
7,302 posts, read 3,384,754 times
Reputation: 4812
1. Reduce the crime rate to the point that crime is virtually absent. In some parts of the West, cops don't even need to carry guns. Because of the violent nature of the population, here they do. Why is the population so crime-prone and violent? Responsibility needs to be taken.

2. Don't resist arrest if you are a criminal.

3. Treat the police with respect and non-violence, every day, so that you don't cause them to get PTSD that is later reflected in their policing. The police are not replaceable robots. The cop that you create is the cop that you get.

The US population is not going to put up with not policing crime. The cop that you create is the cop that you get.

The only truly changeable factor in this equation is the crime rate.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:41 PM
 
Location: King County, WA
15,735 posts, read 6,447,235 times
Reputation: 13202
Hard liquor is a solution. Just ask any chemist.
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