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Old 07-19-2020, 06:36 AM
 
8,922 posts, read 2,527,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
Nazis lost the war and Soviets won.....with out help.

You don't hear about commies? We sent 2.7 million troops to fight commies in Vietnam and for 70 years we have been told there is a commie under every bed.
One of the reason there were so many WWII Nazi movies is to make sure all Americans remember that "we" "won" the war and not those commies.




American psyche would be much different if they realized that military the second most evil person on the planet defeated the first, and the Allies were 10% of the victory.
That's not really all that honest a re-telling of history though. The Eastern front was an invasion of Russia that stalled out due to supply lines getting too long and the pressure Germany was facing from the Western front. If not for the allied push from the West, Russia would have completely fallen. As it stands, the Russians lost nearly 17 million people in that German invasion.....15% of their total population.

By the time the invasion was halted, the Germans had made it to just outside Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Moscow. Without the pressure from the West dividing their forces, they'd have been able to finish the job fairly easily.
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:19 AM
 
26,732 posts, read 22,400,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbythegreat View Post
That's not really all that honest a re-telling of history though. The Eastern front was an invasion of Russia that stalled out due to supply lines getting too long and the pressure Germany was facing from the Western front. If not for the allied push from the West, Russia would have completely fallen. As it stands, the Russians lost nearly 17 million people in that German invasion.....15% of their total population.

By the time the invasion was halted, the Germans had made it to just outside Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Moscow. Without the pressure from the West dividing their forces, they'd have been able to finish the job fairly easily.

More false inventions - will it ever end?

( In reality, the reason the allies landed in Normandy in the first place, was that they were afraid that Stalin would take over not only Eastern Europe, but Western Europe as well.)


I guess not, because as I've said - it's all about pushing propaganda, and as in case with communists, the false narrative works.

27 million Russians destroyed by Hitler (Wikipedia actually puts number closer to 40 million , and so does Solzhenitsyn in his "Archipelago") - this can't be true, that's too much))))
100 million Russians "destroyed by Stalin" - of course it's true.


The bunch of propagandists you are.


P.S. And no Rumann, Hitler was referring to Jews as "rats," not Russians, as far as I remember.
And his officers were inventing narrative of "We came to Russia just to destroy Bolshevism" which was obviously false.
Some Russians initially believed it, and so did actually some German soldiers.
But then the massacre of civilians began.
And that's when everyone understood that it was not about "Bolshevism" at all.
And that's when Stalin said I told you so. They are not after "bolsheviks," they are after YOU, your lives, and your lands.
And once this realization settled in, there was not turning back.
Yes, the "inferior Russian people" destroyed the "fine German army," with all its "fine Aryans," while Americans were standing on side lines, until they felt threatened by the invasion of Western Europe.


And they were probably right, particularly since Russians took Berlin and put Soviet flag on top of Reichstag there.
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:25 AM
 
3,550 posts, read 2,550,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbythegreat View Post
That's not really all that honest a re-telling of history though. The Eastern front was an invasion of Russia that stalled out due to supply lines getting too long and the pressure Germany was facing from the Western front. If not for the allied push from the West, Russia would have completely fallen. As it stands, the Russians lost nearly 17 million people in that German invasion.....15% of their total population.

By the time the invasion was halted, the Germans had made it to just outside Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Moscow. Without the pressure from the West dividing their forces, they'd have been able to finish the job fairly easily.
check the dates, it's possible they would have broken through with a few more troops (could have still got bogged down later). But by the time the US actually fought in Europe, the Russians already were winning the war.




If Russia wasn't part of the fighting the Nazi win the war, if America was not part of the fighting, still a very good chance Russia wins the war
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:44 AM
 
26,732 posts, read 22,400,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
I think I see where you're coming from. (The word "socialist" is really almost useless in American discourse.) But the Kraft durch Freude movement, for instance, had a heckuva collectivist angle to it. The Hitler Jugend and BdM were - not exactly social levelers, but - they did certainly provide indoctrination in the necessity of sacrificing oneself for the nation. Then again, so does West Point, nationalism certainly isn't a socialist invention.

Oh, absolutely not - I agree with that.

THIS is the ultimate proof of it, if anything.

(Because this took place NOT in "Soviet Russia," but under the Russian monarchy, that was as "anti-socialist" as it gets.)


Quote:
The industrialists loved them some Nazism. Kept the workers quiet and - later on - if you needed a few thousand slaves, you just made a phone call. Both the industrialists and the Junkers forming the backbone of the officer corps thought the Nazis were naive, but quite useful. Of course, both groups realized belatedly that they were the naive-but-useful ones, and by then it was too late.
Heard about that one, but I also heard that German aristocracy ( at least part of them) greatly disliked Hitler and was looking down at him.


Quote:
How a people like the Germans lost their head so completely remains a wonder to me. (And I believe I've done my reading on the subject.) German was the language of poetry and philosophy, and then suddenly...
Not to me.

For starters, as I already mentioned before, when it comes to natural "collectivism" ( vs "individualism",) on a scale from 1 to 10, Germans fall somewhere between 4 and 5 ( while Russians - 6 and 7.)
And another thing, as different as these two are, they share this love for poetry and literature, so they are highly spiritual people, ( for good or bad,) and so they are both prone to be carried away by the "idea" - with the kind of self-sacrifice on a grand scale, that's unfamiliar to the "individualists."


P.S. There was an excellent piece written on this one by Brit I believe in "Europe" section" about Germans "drunk with thought" or something like that - I wish I could find it.
It described it all perfectly.
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,179,887 times
Reputation: 4590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriotic Dissent View Post
Did you know Auschwitz has changed its own plaque outside the camp several times as to how many died there? The truth doesn't fear investigation and now go look at what books are banned from amazon.
"The truth, indeed, is something that mankind, for some mysterious reason, instinctively dislikes. Every man who tries to tell it is unpopular, and even when, by the sheer strength of his case, he prevails, he is put down as a scoundrel." - H.L. Mencken

Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Jew View Post
If Russia wasn't part of the fighting the Nazi win the war, if America was not part of the fighting, still a very good chance Russia wins the war
America was very much involved in WWII long before Operation Barbarossa. You don't have to be fighting to be at war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
They DID consider other races inferior, and that is a fact. Ultra-nationalism mixed with racism drew every right-wing group in Germany to join the Nazis which led to rapid expansion of the Nazi organization.
Nationalism goes hand-in-hand with some concept of superiority/exceptionalism, especially ethno-nationalism. The North Koreans believe they're a master-race. It isn't shocking to me if the Brits think they're the best people on the best island with the best culture and the best history, etc. I don't know why it is shocking to anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Hitler needed a scapegoat to blame for the problems in Germany and the failures of that country. He divided the country and worked to attack a "common enemy", focusing and blaming them, rather than telling people that THEY had to work together to better their nation.
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides

1) Hitler didn't divide his country, he united them. He didn't look for a scapegoat for the problems and failures in Germany, he fixed the problems in Germany. The German economy was basically a miracle at the time when the rest of the world was still mired in the Great Depression.
2) Germany wasn't the only antisemitic country. In fact nearly every country was, and the reason had nothing to do with the bible, but because of capitalism basically. The Jews were seen as usurers, speculators, exploiters, etc. The Rothschilds are sort of the symbol of the Jews of the time.
3) The Soviet Union actually did want to conquer the world. And the Soviets had already tried to export a revolution to Germany and many other Eastern-European countries. Stalin was rapidly industrializing and basically intended to march across Europe. Go look at a map of 1939, look at the size of the Russian, British, and French Empires, then look at Germany.

Last edited by Redshadowz; 07-19-2020 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:40 PM
 
Location: San Diego
18,673 posts, read 7,542,298 times
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Hilarious.

The liberal fanatics are STILL trying to fool normal people into believing Hitler and the Nazis weren't socialists.

Elsewhere they are also still pushing the fib that millions of southern Democrats and Republicans suddenly swapped places in only a few years sometime in the 20th century.

Will these people EVER stop lying and misrepresenting themselves?
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Old 07-19-2020, 03:50 PM
 
26,732 posts, read 22,400,147 times
Reputation: 10023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Nationalism goes hand-in-hand with some concept of superiority/exceptionalism, especially ethno-nationalism. The North Koreans believe they're a master-race. It isn't shocking to me if the Brits think they're the best people on the best island with the best culture and the best history, etc. I don't know why it is shocking to anyone else.

There is nothing "shocking" about it.
The question is - how far one is willing to go, in order to assure this perceived superiority.


Quote:
2) Germany wasn't the only antisemitic country. In fact nearly every country was, and the reason had nothing to do with the bible, but because of capitalism basically. The Jews were seen as usurers, speculators, exploiters, etc. The Rothschilds are sort of the symbol of the Jews of the time.
Of course Europe had a long history of anti-semitism long before Hitler came to power. It goes much further back than any "capitalism," so of course it has roots in the bible.

Quote:
3) The Soviet Union actually did want to conquer the world. And the Soviets had already tried to export a revolution to Germany and many other Eastern-European countries. Stalin was rapidly industrializing and basically intended to march across Europe. Go look at a map of 1939, look at the size of the Russian, British, and French Empires, then look at Germany.
Wrong again.

The first original "revolutionaries" of Soviet Russia ( many of them Jews,) were dreaming of the "World revolution" until the early twenties, Leon Trotsky being the main proponent of it.

But these theories were later dropped, since Stalin was a practical man, and he was preoccupied with building socialism in one country only, where he already had plenty of problems on hands as it was.
Oh, and revolution was exported TO Russia from Germany actually.

Practically all early Russian revolutionaries were either educated in Germany, spent some time there, were coming from the mixed families, or were downright Russian Germans.

Not to mention that as the story has it, Germans payed for Lenin's secret return to Russia, that he would stage his revolution over THERE.
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Old 07-19-2020, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,856 posts, read 8,179,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
There is nothing "shocking" about it. The question is - how far one is willing to go, in order to assure this perceived superiority.
90% of what people believe about the Nazis isn't true. But for that matter, most of what people believe about America isn't true either. I have no idea what you're talking about, but suffice to say I disagree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Of course Europe had a long history of anti-semitism long before Hitler came to power. It goes much further back than any "capitalism," so of course it has roots in the bible.
I was speaking specifically about the huge rise in antisemitism that started from the mid-1800's and continued through WWII. Which was ABSOLUTELY the byproduct of capitalism. And the beef the Nazis had with the Jews was about money, not religion. Hitler wasn't upset that the Jews got Jesus crucified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Stalin was a practical man, and he was preoccupied with building socialism in one country only
The purpose of "Socialism in one country" was to strengthen the Soviet Union. Stalin needed to industrialize. It wasn't because Stalin gave up on spreading the revolution, but out of pure necessity. And instead of supporting revolutions by proxy, once the Soviets got strong enough they would be able to spread communism by force. Which is what they did. And without America, the Soviets would have rolled across the entire continent of Europe, and who knows where else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh, and revolution was exported TO Russia from Germany actually.
The Russian Revolution happened in 1917. The Russian Tsar was already murdered before the German Revolution began. Obviously the communist revolution was supposed to happen in Germany(because Germany was the most advanced industrial country at the time), but it didn't. The German intellectuals went to Russia to help the Bolsheviks, and then came back later with the help of the new Russian State to start the German Revolution, which failed. We can debate who was exporting what, but there is a huge difference between individual action and government action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...of_1918–1919

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution

Last edited by Redshadowz; 07-19-2020 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:07 PM
 
8,050 posts, read 3,619,484 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbythegreat View Post
That's not really all that honest a re-telling of history though. The Eastern front was an invasion of Russia that stalled out due to supply lines getting too long and the pressure Germany was facing from the Western front. If not for the allied push from the West, Russia would have completely fallen. As it stands, the Russians lost nearly 17 million people in that German invasion.....15% of their total population.

By the time the invasion was halted, the Germans had made it to just outside Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Moscow. Without the pressure from the West dividing their forces, they'd have been able to finish the job fairly easily.
Nope. Germany was done after Stalingrad and Kursk, way before D-day. It was just a matter of time.
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Old 07-19-2020, 05:53 PM
 
26,732 posts, read 22,400,147 times
Reputation: 10023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
90% of what people believe about the Nazis isn't true. But for that matter, most of what people believe about America isn't true either. I have no idea what you're talking about, but suffice to say I disagree with you.

What "people"? Where?
What do they believe?
I have no idea what you are talking about either.


Quote:
I was speaking specifically about the huge rise in antisemitism that started from the mid-1800's and continued through WWII. Which was ABSOLUTELY the byproduct of capitalism.
That's how you'd love to construct your theory, and that's why you take specific era, in order to fit your point.

In reality, as I said - it's not about "capitalism."
The reason Jews ended up in banking to begin with, was that they were not allowed to own land in Europe that's number one, and number two - I think Christianity prohibits lending money with interest. ( Don't quote me on that, because I don't have time now to look up all the details.)
The point being - the whole "Jewish affair" goes much further back in time that you'd like to present, and the roots of it ARE in the Bible.


( As much as rebirth of Israel as a state back in 1948 actually.)

Quote:
And the beef the Nazis had with the Jews was about money, not religion. Hitler wasn't upset that the Jews got Jesus crucified.
Of course not.

Even for a reason that Hitler considered Christianity as very *inconvenient* religion for Germany, unlike Islam.

And it was not about "money" either.
It was all about the racial theory, as I've said.
The same concept that was used for attacking Russia.

Quote:
The purpose of "Socialism in one country" was to strengthen the Soviet Union. Stalin needed to industrialize. It wasn't because Stalin gave up on spreading the revolution, but out of pure necessity. And instead of supporting revolutions by proxy, once the Soviets got strong enough they would be able to spread communism by force. Which is what they did. And without America, the Soviets would have rolled across the entire continent of Europe, and who knows where else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_one_country"

Did you look yourself closely at what Wikipedia article says about it exactly?

"Stalin presented the theory of socialism in one country as a further development of Leninism based on Lenin's aforementioned quotations. In his 14 February 1938 article titled Response to Comrade Ivanov, formulated as an answer to a question of a "comrade Ivanov" mailed to Pravda newspaper, Stalin splits the question in two parts. The first side of the question is in terms of the internal relations within the Soviet Union, whether it is possible to construct the socialist society by defeating the local bourgeoisie and fostering the union of workers and peasants. Stalin quotes Lenin that "we have all that is necessary for the building of a complete socialist society" and claims that the socialist society has for the most part been indeed constructed. The second side of the question is in terms of external relations and whether the victory of the socialism is "final", i.e. whether capitalism cannot possibly be restored. Here, Stalin cites Lenin that the final victory is possible only on the international scale and only with the help of the workers of other countries.[15]




What Stalin said, was absolutely correct.
That is that victory of socialism couldn't be final ( in the USSR,) with no threat of capitalism being restored there, without "international scale" and "help of workers of other countries."
And that's precisely what we witnessed back in the 90ies, when capitalism was returned in its ugliest form to the USSR, with American help.
Why? Because capitalism is every bit as aggressive in its ideology as *communism* is.
So there is no sense pointing at "Soviet threat of spreading *communism* globally, because if capitalism wouldn't have remained threatening to Soviets, they'd be content with "building Socialism in one country."
With other words, it takes two to tango and capitalism is as every bit striving to take completely over the globe, as *communism* is.



Quote:
The Russian Revolution happened in 1917. The Russian Tsar was already murdered before the German Revolution began. Obviously the communist revolution was supposed to happen in Germany(because Germany was the most advanced industrial country at the time), but it didn't. The German intellectuals went to Russia to help the Bolsheviks, and then came back later with the help of the new Russian State to start the German Revolution, which failed. We can debate who was exporting what, but there is a huge difference between individual action and government action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...of_1918–1919

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution
There is no need to debate where the idea of Socialist revolution came to Russia from, if you are even slightly familiar the time line of growing progression of revolutionary thought in Russia, with honorary mentioning of someone named Alexander Herzen, "father of Russian socialism."
Of course it came from Germany, and after the "touchdown," it bounced and tried to spring back to to Germany as well.
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