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This is trotted out every year. Again, no, there was no force compelling the allies to invade Japan at a cost of 1 million lives. Given that Japan was contained and all but defeated, sacrificing a million in an invasion would have been foolish. The bombs simply forced a quick surrender, which was advantageous strategically. They were a way to win and go home. Let's leave it at that, and drop the false moral posturing.
Setting aside any morality, there are some really good podcasts by Dan Carlin who covers a variety of topics, one of which is this time period.
Most people, let alone Americans cannot understand the Japanese mindset at the time towards surrender.
So here, let me point this out.
It was big news when about 30 years after the end of WW2 a lone Japanese solider finally surrender.
Oh sure, one dude, proves nothing...totally agree.
But he wasn't alone. Entire units fought for years after and about 20 known individuals went 10-30 years after ww2.
They were already negotiating a surrender. Read through this thread before you post please. In the previous page of this thread I provided plenty of reading material.
Yeah they were negotiating a very conditional surrender. They tried to stop their emperor from surrendering.
I have to go by demonstrated behaviors. People throwing themselves off cliffs rather than surrender. Soldiers hiding in the jungle for decades rather than surrender. Saipan and Iwo Jima taught us a great deal about our enemy.
Look hindsight is always 20/20. Common sense should have told them that they were finished after Midway. We effectively destroyed their ability to project power. They viewed anyone who surrenders as cowards and unfit to live. Thus the many beheadings of prisoners who surrendered and how they treated prisoners of war.
Actions speak louder than words. Their actions spoke loud and clear.
Yeah they were negotiating a very conditional surrender. They tried to stop their emperor from surrendering.
I have to go by demonstrated behaviors. People throwing themselves off cliffs rather than surrender. Soldiers hiding in the jungle for decades rather than surrender. Saipan and Iwo Jima taught us a great deal about our enemy.
Look hindsight is always 20/20. Common sense should have told them that they were finished after Midway. We effectively destroyed their ability to project power. They viewed anyone who surrenders as cowards and unfit to live. Thus the many beheadings of prisoners who surrendered and how they treated prisoners of war.
Actions speak louder than words. Their actions spoke loud and clear.
Of course, the possibility that they were complete idiots to be spouting such counterproductive bilge, should be taken into account too. It led them into invading, torturing, and killing neighboring countries (China, Korea etc.) when they had insufficient natural resources to make war (oil rubber, tin) and had to buy those thing from people who strongly disagreed with their actions. Then they attacked one of those suppliers, gambling their entire nation on winning a war with countries 20x their size and industrial capability. Then when the war turned against them (with those huge countries barely getting started), they didn't (wisely) work out a surrender that might leave their country intact, but instead kept fighting as their fortunes waned and waned, not stopping until their own country was bombed into rubble, their armed forced almost completely wiped out.
Some say the Japanese were tremendously brave and resolute. I maintain that such "bravery and resolution" are the characteristics of lemmings marching bravely and resolutely into a sea that will destroy them - and should have been tempered with a little intelligence, but clearly wasn't.
While you may have felt invasion was foolish, we wanted an end to the war and yes, we were going to invade.
My parents were small American children in 1945 so I had no feelings about it at the time. But the idea of a full-scale invasion, against all-out resistance, costing millions of lives on both sides does seem very foolish to me from my vantage point in 2020. It may true that America was going to invade and control Japan whatever the cost. But I find it hard to believe. Likely there would have been continued conventional bombing, perhaps more small-scale invasions of strategic areas, and a surrender would have been achieved within weeks or months, even without use of A-bombs on cities.
And by the way, it's nice to see that I'm off your ignore list. Be warned though, I am not reformed and still post the same disturbing material I always have.
Correct. They were for OUR good. The huge benefit to the Japanese (saving more than a million of their lives that we would otherwise have killed) is a side benefit that just got tossed in.
Amen.
Truman made the correct decisions - using BOTH bombs rapidly.
It ended the war, saved hundreds of thousands of American soldiers lives. Mission accomplished.
Incinerating hundreds of thousands of yellow civilians for their own good is just the white man's burden.
There are people who believe it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
Japan wanted the far east as an empire which included both US and British holdings. It's your basic clash of empires. There was no "victim", Japan wasn't just sitting around idly and getting embargoes slapped on them. Nor was the British in particular the good guys (or the US), Japan just wanted to supplant them.
I basically agree. I think the real question is, did the bombing of civilians win us the war? Did it "save lives"?
You could argue that, at the time they honestly thought it did. But I would hope that 75 years later we can look back and realize that murdering their women and children not only wasn't what won us the war, but was a crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
We wanted an end to the war and yes, we were going to invade.
An invasion wasn't possible until November at the earliest. There is no way Japan wouldn't have surrendered by then. Especially not after the Soviets entered the war. There was a 0% chance of an invasion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962
Saipan and Iwo Jima taught us a great deal about our enemy.
Wouldn't patriotic Americans have fought just as hard? And if not, why not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962
Look hindsight is always 20/20. Common sense should have told them that they were finished after Midway.
Fighting between the United States and Japan was nothing compared to the fighting in China. We were more an annoyance than anything. Same with Germany who did like 90% of their fighting with the Soviet Union. And even with our minimal role in Europe, about 85% of US WWII casualties were in Europe, not the Pacific.
I basically agree. I think the real question is, did the bombing of civilians win us the war? Did it "save lives"?
You could argue that, at the time they honestly thought it did. But I would hope that 75 years later we can look back and realize that murdering their women and children not only wasn't what won us the war, but was a crime.
An invasion wasn't possible until November at the earliest. There is no way Japan wouldn't have surrendered by then. Especially not after the Soviets entered the war. There was a 0% chance of an invasion.
Wouldn't patriotic Americans have fought just as hard? And if not, why not?
Fighting between the United States and Japan was nothing compared to the fighting in China. We were more an annoyance than anything. Same with Germany who did like 90% of their fighting with the Soviet Union. And even with our minimal role in Europe, about 85% of US WWII casualties were in Europe, not the Pacific.
LOL losing their carrier fleet was an annoyance. hahahaha. It broke their backs.
China? Do you refer to the rape of Nanking? The Germans made them look like amateurs, but 300,000 raped and murdered is quite a legacy. The death march, mass suicides on Saipan and Tinian. Yes they gave every clue that they were reasonable people who would be interested in a surrender.
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