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The left? The reason people are leaving the church is because of the warped and hypocritical beliefs on the right. It will be the evangelicals themselves who destroy religion in this country. People are finally recognizing their beliefs as un-Christian.
The righties are always going to try and blame the left for anything and everything. I think it's funny to watch them and the twisting and turning they go through to try and pin their outlandish fantasies on "the left" and "libruls".
So, no, I know of not one document that asserts it, but I know many of a document that it is profoundly implied.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
The United States was not founded explicitly as a Christian Nation. Not because the Founding Fathers were secret atheists who wanted Christianity driven out of public life. But because they were political pragmatists who saw the benefit of keeping government secular.
A religious government has its hands bound, and is limited in size and scope. It can only rule over people who share its religion. And as a religious government, it would necessarily come into conflict with other religious governments.
Take for instance the standard atheist argument against America as a Christian Nation, which comes from a treaty between the United States and the Barbary States or North Africa...
"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
This was a treaty with Muslims, who believed that their religion requires them to fight against Christian Nations, enslave their people, and hold them as Dhimmi.
The United States simply said that America isn't a Christian Nation so you need not make war against us, or enslave our people. A secular government is unaffiliated. Thus it can ally itself with anyone, and spread out across the world. Religious government is a terrible idea.
Oh, you missed my post; found this years ago and learned a bit more about history when in this debate; the go to document is that Treaty of Tripoli:
"As even a casual examination of the annotated translation of 1930 shows, the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic; and even as such its defects throughout are obvious and glaring. Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point"
The plot thickens Redshadowz (my bold for emphasis) We can do what we do best on c-d and that is speculate as to the why and what happened --- but it has been my life long of 60 years experience, there are just somethings in this life that are to remain --- a mystery. I only know the end game of it all was to free the Brits that had been kidnapped and enslaved.
That could be, but are fairy tales written about places that actually exist?
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Originally Posted by sanspeur
Absolutely, most fiction over the years has been set in real places, and still is today.
Is it Egypt that would like the Bible to be declared a book of mythical fairy tales, so that they can have the land that Israel sits on? Your beliefs are political and those beliefs can effect the lives of millions of people; there are those that will use 'em for their gain.
Sorry, I don't believe in fairy tales, Santa, the Easter Bunny either. Religion is not required for someone to lead a moral and ethical life; and being a "believer" certainly doesn't give you a lock on being moral or ethical.
I agree, but America has a long way to go if it wants to become more secular/non-religious. Churches are still not taxed and there's still one on every corner in the south.
Is it Egypt that would like the Bible to be declared a book of mythical fairy tales, so that they can have the land that Israel sits on? Your beliefs are political and those beliefs can effect the lives of millions of people; there are those that will use 'em for their gain.
The idea that one can or should modify their objective beliefs about the supernatural for the benefit of a modern nation state is nonsensical.
Supernatural beliefs are an individual perceptive choice arrived at through thinking and reasoning about the various supernatural claims that have been made through both oral tradition or the various holy books.
Is it Egypt that would like the Bible to be declared a book of mythical fairy tales, so that they can have the land that Israel sits on? Your beliefs are political and those beliefs can effect the lives of millions of people; there are those that will use 'em for their gain.
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Originally Posted by atltechdude
The idea that one can or should modify their objective beliefs about the supernatural for the benefit of a modern nation state is nonsensical.
It is oral history; you could tell me yours and I probably wouldn't believe it anymore than you believe the ones who wrote the books in the Bible. But you'll believe this government, when they tell you who and what to believe in.
Quote:
Supernatural beliefs are an individual perceptive choice arrived at through thinking and reasoning about the various supernatural claims that have been made through both oral tradition or the various holy books.
I didn't find God in a book --- I read about other's experiences, but they are not me.
It is oral history; you could tell me yours and I probably wouldn't believe it anymore than you believe the ones who wrote the books in the Bible. But you'll believe this government, when they tell you who and what to believe in.
Exactly as I said, it’s an individual perception, and everyone’s is going to be different. Telling someone they should or should not believe X because it will have this outcome in the world doesn’t really change any of the inputs that went into that person coming to their decision, so the idea that can modify belief is rather silly.
It is oral history; you could tell me yours and I probably wouldn't believe it anymore than you believe the ones who wrote the books in the Bible. But you'll believe this government, when they tell you who and what to believe in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atltechdude
Exactly as I said, it’s an individual perception, and everyone’s is going to be different. Telling someone they should or should not believe X because it will have this outcome in the world doesn’t really change any of the inputs that went into that person coming to their decision, so the idea that can modify belief is rather silly.
And yet government(s) spends a lot of time, modifying the behaviors of their citizens, utilizing individual beliefs, mainly their prejudices. Get the world to believe the oral history of the Bible is mythic --- will indeed change the lives of many people who live in those countries and they can loose their land and their rights to that land.
OP, can you give three concrete examples of the left preventing anyone from joining and participating in a church? Have they closed any down? Prevented anyone from entering? The left doesn’t prevent people from thinking and voting right wing, so how are they causing them to not go to church?
If the left is as powerful as you believe and can stop people from going to church, then they should be powerful enough to get the former church goers to personally give them the money they would have been tithing or donating to their churches or at least to liberal/left organizations and causes.
Every time the Republican Party passes a law that pits the bible against the constitution and the law get soundly defeated in the courts it chips away at church membership. This is a good thing. Too many people are in church for the political influence it gives them. Too many people contribute to a church because they want the church to be a tool in affecting laws.
Its is those people who have been enlighten and have learned the unfortunate truth about the separation of church and state.
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(my bold for emphasis) We can do what we do best on c-d and that is speculate as to the why and what happened --- but it has been my life long of 60 years experience, there are just somethings in this life that are to remain --- a mystery. 
I only know the end game of it all was to free the Brits that had been kidnapped and enslaved.
