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No, you don't understand the building design and diminish your claims as a result.
The steel fabricated exo-structure was not designed so support the gravity load, it was intended to support the lateral load, to allowing the building to flex under high winds. The central core had the sole function of supporting the gravity load.
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The Dancing Israelis is not merely "interesting" it is fact, and it is proof positive of a conspiracy, since one cannot be armed with a video camera mounted on a tripod in parking lot across from the WTC at 8:35 am without knowing in advance that an event would occur.
I never suggested that the whole operation was Israel's design. The fact that Israelis were involved does not prove the Israeli government sanctioned the operation or even had knowledge of it, it only proves that Israelis were involved. They could have been recruited by Israeli organized crime, and that wouldn't be the first time organized crime elements were involved in a conspiracy with renegade government agents. They could have also been recruited as part of someone's personal private mercenary army. The bottom line is that Israel does not extradite, so they would be protected.
It's undisputed that more than 600 Israelis spies were deported from the US in the two weeks prior to 9-11 and over the several weeks afterward. FOX News actually did a story on it, but management refused to air it.
Your knowledge of demolitions is also appallingly meager. A half ton of PBX for each tower would have been sufficient, and I never said thermite wasn't used, in fact, the FEMA report shows evidence it was, yet they failed to pursue it.
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That's a misinterpretation of the facts. They could have destroyed the towers seconds after impact, but they didn't, and fire-fighters are clearly distinguishable from the ordinary citizens who worked in the towers.
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I am not sure what C-4 detonations look like or if it was detected on 9-11, as thermite was, so I guess my knowledge of explosives is 'appallingly meager' - I guess I missed the 'Explosives' elective on my way to my Bachelor's. But I doubt that Marvin Bush needed a truckload of C-4 to be delivered on 9-11 by Israelis, since he was in control of the building security, and had shut down banks of elevators for days at a time in the weeks prior.
Be that as it may, while I am not in full agreement with you, I agree on the basic premise with you, and I'm glad to see someone post to this thread who actually has something useful to contribute, unlike the others.
The buildings may have used a steel core structure to provide the basic vertical support, and the steel framing around the perimeter for horizontal support, fine. It doesn't detract from the fact that explosives must have been used to cut thru the main steel supports. The steel girders seen shooting out horizontally from the buildings were no doubt the perimeter beams.
As for you assumption that the people in charge for 'pulling' the buildings were in some way trying to minimize the loss of life - I find that rather naive. I think they wanted the effect of the 9-11 loss to me maximized, not minimized. They were sending people back UP into the building for God's sake. I think that the reason they didn't bring it down sooner was because it would have even been harder to justify a free fall collapse.
It's interesting that you made the 'dancing Israeli's' a central theme in your case for the detonations. I admit that when someone said to me, a week after 9-11, that hundreds of Jews stayed home from work that day, and that bombs were said to have gone off in the buildings, I said he was 'crazy' to think that there was a 'plot' by our government and Israel to bring down the towers.
That's what the vast majority of people thought then, but facts have a way of opening your mind up to other possibilities.
I did look up the 'dancing Israelis' on what I think is the most informative site, 9-11 Research.
Three heavily reinforced steel frame buildings collapsed at free fall speed on 9-11. One of which was not even touched by an airplane, the other 2 had relatively minor damage and fires burning, and were built to withstand multiple air crashes. No steel framed skyscraper has ever collapsed due to fire before in history.
The third building that collapsed had it's foundations compromised and was hit by hundreds of tons of debris from the other two buildings.
The Twin Towers were built to withstand a hit from a light aircraft that might hit one of the towers during a foggy day. Not a jumbo jet going at nearly top speed with an almost full fuel tank.
The damage wasn't "relatively minor"; a number of support structures were destroyed when the planes hit, the fires weakened the steel beams which supported the buildings, and the fire protection foam was stripped off from the impact of the planes.
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There were molten pools of steel found at the bottom of all 3 buildings that burned for months. Fires produced by the jet fuel did not come close to that required to produce those pools.
Molten pools of steel that burned for months? I find that hard to believe. The fires that were burning were from the flammable materials that were inside the buildings before the planes even hit. As far as molten steel is concerned, there aren't many materials that can melt steel that quickly, period. Unless several tons of thermate were stashed around the buildings with nobody noticing, it is unlikely to say the least.
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The buildings were relatively bare of flammable materials, and were designed to isolate fires.
Except for all the carpeting, wiring, papers (they were office buildings), furniture, and other assorted material. Plus all that jet fuel too. And the fire retardant foam was torn off the steel beams due to the wreckage hurdling through the building at over 100MPH. Oh, and how the design of the interiors isolates fires doesn't due much when the building falls apart.
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Who planted the explosives? Well, a security company with ties to Marvin Bush presided over the building for months before 9-11. Occupants reported banks of elevators being made unavailable for use for days at a time, and loud rumbling noises were heard on supposedly vacant floors.
With ties to the least notable Bush family member? What kind of ties? And what kind of security company is this anyways? The World Trade Center isn't likely to hire some dinky little security company, so they would probably hire a pretty sizable one. One with a lot of employees. Do you know anyone who works security? They are working stiffs, not a special ops team. Granted, some security guards are former police officers and former military, but most aren't. They would have either the training to secretly plant tons of explosives and I'm pretty sure more than a few of these security guards would have noticed something pretty fishy like people planting explosives throughout the towers during work hours.
Elevators being made unavailable? That couldn't possibly be routine maintenance... Loud noises on vacant floors? There isn't the possibility of them renovating a floor for a new tenant? Considering when a company is large enough to take up an entire floor of a large office building (or several) they often require the space to be altered slightly to suit their needs, it most likely that it was just workmen preparing the new site.
Since you are neither and I am an engineer, I'll characterize your assessment as come from a position of ignorance.
You never answered my question - what branch of enineering is your degree in, what school, what experience - if you are such an expert, why not answer?
You never answered my question - what branch of enineering is your degree in, what school, what experience - if you are such an expert, why not answer?
Because the law classifies me as a licensed professional engineer. That's sufficient to demonstrate credentials you do not have.
The third building that collapsed had it's foundations compromised and was hit by hundreds of tons of debris from the other two buildings.
The Twin Towers were built to withstand a hit from a light aircraft that might hit one of the towers during a foggy day. Not a jumbo jet going at nearly top speed with an almost full fuel tank.
The damage wasn't "relatively minor"; a number of support structures were destroyed when the planes hit, the fires weakened the steel beams which supported the buildings, and the fire protection foam was stripped off from the impact of the planes.
Molten pools of steel that burned for months? I find that hard to believe. The fires that were burning were from the flammable materials that were inside the buildings before the planes even hit. As far as molten steel is concerned, there aren't many materials that can melt steel that quickly, period. Unless several tons of thermate were stashed around the buildings with nobody noticing, it is unlikely to say the least.
Except for all the carpeting, wiring, papers (they were office buildings), furniture, and other assorted material. Plus all that jet fuel too. And the fire retardant foam was torn off the steel beams due to the wreckage hurdling through the building at over 100MPH. Oh, and how the design of the interiors isolates fires doesn't due much when the building falls apart.
With ties to the least notable Bush family member? What kind of ties? And what kind of security company is this anyways? The World Trade Center isn't likely to hire some dinky little security company, so they would probably hire a pretty sizable one. One with a lot of employees. Do you know anyone who works security? They are working stiffs, not a special ops team. Granted, some security guards are former police officers and former military, but most aren't. They would have either the training to secretly plant tons of explosives and I'm pretty sure more than a few of these security guards would have noticed something pretty fishy like people planting explosives throughout the towers during work hours.
Elevators being made unavailable? That couldn't possibly be routine maintenance... Loud noises on vacant floors? There isn't the possibility of them renovating a floor for a new tenant? Considering when a company is large enough to take up an entire floor of a large office building (or several) they often require the space to be altered slightly to suit their needs, it most likely that it was just workmen preparing the new site.
Building 7 doesn't have much damage at all, just a few small fires from falling debris, certainly not enough to bring it down in a perfect controlled demolition, as it was.
Building 7 doesn't have much damage at all, just a few small fires from falling debris, certainly not enough to bring it down in a perfect controlled demolition, as it was.
You don't call a ten story gash caused by debris on its south (and less visible) side to be "[not much] damage"?
And the fires spread because the firefighters were under-staffed (the rest were either dead or dealing with the main towers which were actually occupied). So a 100+ foot gash combined with a blazing inferno inside the building and a cracked foundation caused the building to collapse.
I am not sure what C-4 detonations look like or if it was detected on 9-11, as thermite was
They look like whatever you want them to look like and you can shape PBX to do whatever you want it to do.
For a nuclear device that uses a thin-shelled spherical implosion device, you would use lathes and mills to shape the PBX as hexagonal concave or convex lenses. You place them so they direct the force of the blast inward to collapse the spherical implosion device.
A small problem exists because the collision of plutonium is inelastic, and it would bounce apart, just like two billiard balls smacking together, so the second set of plastic explosive lenses is detonated a few nanoseconds after the first to send a shock-wave to compress the plutonium and keep it from separating during the inelastic collision. That keeps the plutonium at critical mass long enough for a sufficient number of fissions.
If you don't want the PBX to explode, then shape it so it doesn't. Instead of exploding, it will burn rapidly creating a 5000*F jet of fire.
That's how HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds work. You have two explosive charges. The first charge is a shaped charge that burns a hole in the armor of the vehicle, and then milliseconds later the main charge punches through the hole and explodes instead of burning.
Any crew in the vehicle not killed or injured by the spalling thrown off by the burning shaped charge will be killed when the main warhead detonates.
For something like the WTC, you'd want to use shaped charges that burn, not explode. You'd want that 5000*F jet flame to slice right through the steel beams to weaken them so they'd collapse.
Unfortunately, most Americans are biased from erroneous views of "things that go boom" by Hollywood. Throwing a grenade into a house will not cause the house to collapse, contrary to what Hollywood film-makers might believe, and grenades explode with a whitish-gray cloud of smoke, not a brilliant orange fire-ball. In a Chunk Norris film, he shoots a guy with an M40 grenade launcher at point blank range, and the guy flies about 10 feet through the air and blows up. Sorry, in real life a grenade fired from a grenade launcher must travel 40 meters just to arm itself.
Statistically, less than 1/2 of 1% of all vehicle collisions result in fire, and less than 1% of those result in explosions, yet according to Hollywood, any vehicle that wrecks blows up in a huge fireball.
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Originally Posted by gorgeet
But I doubt that Marvin Bush needed a truckload of C-4 to be delivered on 9-11 by Israelis, since he was in control of the building security, and had shut down banks of elevators for days at a time in the weeks prior.
Your assertion that Marvin Bush "was in control of the building security" is baseless, without merit, inflammatory, misleading, deceptive and blatantly false.
Marvin Bush was merely a principal investor in the security company through the year 2000. He was neither responsible for building security, nor did he have direct control over building security.
Whether or not banks of elevators where shut down is irrelevant, since witness statements, by the bomb dog handlers themselves, are incontrovertible proof that bomb dogs were present at all times in the WTC, except for the weekend prior to 9-11 when they were inexplicably removed.
PBX vapors permeate clothing and all other porous material, and PBX residue on hands, clothing and shoes that is tracked on carpeting and tile is what bomb dogs detect, the residue and vapors, not the actual PBX.
There is no way possible to introduce PBX into the environment while bomb dogs were present, and introducing it far in advance of actual need posed too great a risk of detection.
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Originally Posted by gorgeet
As for you assumption that the people in charge for 'pulling' the buildings were in some way trying to minimize the loss of life - I find that rather naive. I think they wanted the effect of the 9-11 loss to me maximized, not minimized.
Less than 1 in 10,000 Americans can even remember the name of just one dead person in the towers, but they do remember the image of the towers collapsing. That was the effect that was sought, a visual effect, much like the Arizona lying crippled and burning at Pearl Harbor.
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Originally Posted by gorgeet
They were sending people back UP into the building for God's sake.
No, they were not sending people, they were sending fire-fighters, a major difference (not that fire-fighters aren't people, but that it's their job to enter burning buildings).
If they were interested in maximizing loss of life, then they should have collapsed the towers seconds after impact, while they still would have been able to kill thousands on the ground as well as thousands in the towers.
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Originally Posted by gorgeet
It's interesting that you made the 'dancing Israeli's' a central theme in your case for the detonations. I admit that when someone said to me, a week after 9-11, that hundreds of Jews stayed home from work that day, and that bombs were said to have gone off in the buildings, I said he was 'crazy' to think that there was a 'plot' by our government and Israel to bring down the towers.
A false assumption. Again, the fact that two of the Dancing Israelis were bona fide Massad agents and that the other 3 were former IDF members is not proof that the government of Israel had prior knowledge, or that it sanctioned the action, or that it was even involved.
Likewise, the fact that a half-dozen well-placed conspirators in several government agencies were involved does not mean that the US Government had prior knowledge, or that it sanctioned or approved of the action, or that it was even involved.
No fool would recruit Israelis for such a task, but they would recruit Zionists, who are fanatics and have no qualms about killing others in furtherance of their cause, they definitely know how to keep a secret, and best of all, once they return to Israel they cannot be extradited to the US to stand charges. Several witnesses at Liberty Park stated that the Dancing Israelis made statements to the effect that "now you [Americans] know what it [terrorism] is like."
On an Israeli television program, one of the Dancing Israelis is alleged to have said, "Our purpose was to document the event." With a video camera mounted on a tripod standing atop a 40 foot moving van 15 minutes prior to the first attack, I guess they were able to do so quite well, but again it's proof of prior knowledge and of conspiracy. Whether the conspiracy was active or passive is irrelevant, since a passive conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
You don't call a ten story gash caused by debris on its south (and less visible) side to be "[not much] damage"?
And the fires spread because the firefighters were under-staffed (the rest were either dead or dealing with the main towers which were actually occupied). So a 100+ foot gash combined with a blazing inferno inside the building and a cracked foundation caused the building to collapse.
Where is the ten-story gash? The photos I see just before the implosion show no such damage.
Because the law classifies me as a licensed professional engineer. That's sufficient to demonstrate credentials you do not have.
Big deal. You probably have a Civil Engineering degree, if that.
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