Supreme Court will hear direct challenge to Roe v. Wade (accuse, examples)

[Marc Paolella]

Originally Posted by Stepnking

Oh, must have had a second thought. You are different (more advanced) now than when you were 5 years old. Different mental capabilities, different appearance, but you are still the same person. You were the same person when you were in the womb. There has never been two of you. That is what I meant in saying (regardless of trimesters) they are the same. We never stop developing from conception to grave. That is what age is about.

I suppose we could say of the 5 year old Marc, 'He is not part of the labor force. He makes no contribution. All he does is take, take, take, and has to be provided for, therefore he has no value. Get rid of him'.
Sounds rather ridiculous doesn't it. Well......

You then think the logic of science is the killing of fetus to use the stem cells, when abundant stem cells are available from different sources? You insult science.

A. Cord blood stem cell.
Hematopoietic stem cells from cord blood can be banked and are widely used for allogenic and autologous stem cell transplantation in pediatric hematological diseases as an alternative to bone marrow transplantation.
B. Adult blood stem cells
Adult stem cells occur in many tissues and can differentiate into specialized cells in their tissue of origin and also transdifferentiate into specialized cells characteristic of other tissues. For example, hematopoietic stem cells can differentiate into all three blood cell types as well as into neural stem cells, cardiomyocytes, and liver cells.

I have said previously science (evolution) and religion are not mutually exclusive. But since you seem to continue with your insults, it apparently takes more intelligence to embrace intelligent design than to be convinced that life came from 'spontaneous generation' or a single cell formed in some primordial soup that contained various chemicals but no oxygen.

There is only one of me, and that “me” began to exist as a person late in pregnancy. At 12 weeks, I wasn’t “me” yet, because time and transformation had not occurred, and there was not sufficient brain development and function to exhibit my identity as a person. Aborting what would later become “me” would have been fine if my mom didn’t want future children. I wouldn’t have known or cared, because there was no entity capable of knowing, feeling, or experiencing anything at all.

And none of the stem cell sources you cite have the excellent qualities of fetal stem cells. They are terrific for using in the field of medicine. We need to be harvesting early pregnancy abortion fetuses and utilizing them as a tremendous resource to extend and improve life THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by Ellis Bell

Stop me if you've heard this one:

A scientist was speaking to God and told Him, I can create life.
God said, really?
Scientist says, yes.
God says, do you want to put it to a competition?
Scientist says, sure.
God says, okay then, but bring your own dirt.



If it is proven fact not theory that life began on this earth from a single cell --- that single cell had to come from something else, along with all the other elements that brought it to life. “Nothing happens in a vacuum.”

Originally Posted by Marc Paolella

No one knows how life began, and it really doesn’t matter. Certainly no need to invent mythology to ”explain” it. Because it doesn’t.

Which equates to no better than those who would like to suppress knowledge in order to gain control.

[Stepnking]

This is the continuation of my original post. This is where I left off.

Originally Posted by Clintone

What I'm talking about is not the kind of thing that can be speculation, or that requires research. It's the way the world inevitably works, so long as you look at it a certain way.

Well actually, the world can work anyway you want it........so long as you look at it a certain way. People attempt to prove that everyday.

And that's also the way the world works regardless of whether there's a Heaven, or a Hell, or whether people have souls or not. If I have a soul that continues on in an afterlife...the same rules apply. In that case, I could still look at myself as living on in other people after death...just with an additional offshoot of myself up in Heaven now.

And, actually, I've suggested a view of mine similar to this over in the religion and spirituality forum awhile ago....I've got some agreement from Christians and a Jew or two that people are, essentially, all part of the same super organism. They called it "God." I called it "Pooperscootie."

I've already stated my opinion on that statement. The world works that way if you view it that way. I don't.
It works another way if you view it another way. You won't. See the problem?

From my perspective, it sounds like you're arguing that we should be constantly encouraging parents to have as many babies as possible. I know you're not...because almost no one will see it as a good thing to encourage every mother to have 20 children. However, I see the same problems in both scenarios. Every year a woman is not pregnant, that's another potential Einstein society may be missing out on.

Do you see there being a relevant difference between an organism dying that doesn't mind dying...and that organism never beginning to develop in the first place? Because I don't. ​

Yes, I do.

If there never was anything, then there is nothing.

If there ever was anything, then there is something.

What makes you think a fetus doesn't mind dying? If it were possible to communicate with a fetus at any point prior to birth, you may find at the point of suction tugging at it, it may be very resistant.

There is never a zygote, or any other stage of a fetus that is not developing. To again repeat, pregnancy is not static. From the time of conception there is never a time development is not taking place.

I completely agree with your first paragraph...up until the last sentence.

A fetus can't make decisions about whether or not it should exist well...if at all. That has to be an adult's job.

What if there are no adults in the room. Who does the fetus look to then.

A fetus relies on protection from the mother...and it not coming into existence is one way to protect it. We train our society to view ending one's life as very cold, because it is very cold...when it comes to people with relationships and fears of death and dreams that would missed out on the achievement of.

It becomes a lot less cold when the organism we're considering ending the life of cares nothing about those things.

From my perspective, it sounds like you're arguing that we should be constantly encouraging parents to have 0 children. I know you're not...because almost no one will see it as a good thing to encourage every mother to abort their children.

Now...we could say that some hypothetical older child the fetus would have become might enjoy their life and not like the idea of not having had it...but in the instance of an abortion that older, self-aware child has never existed, anymore than all the infinite children mothers never have gotten pregnant with have never existed, and so it's not missing out on anything through not existing, because there'd be no one to miss out on anything.

This takes us back to my ever, never statement. There are a lot of 'hypothetical' older childs that came from a fetus. In fact all of your friends, family, acquaintances and everyone else in the world came from a fetus. There are a lot of us 'hypotheticals' running around. We all I suppose, would be a lot happier if we had been 'protected' by not coming into existence. That's not my view of how the world works.

Regarding your second paragraph...I can both be pro-contraception, preferring it over abortion, and see the value of abortion to society as well.

[Stepnking]

Originally Posted by Marc Paolella

There is only one of me, and that “me” began to exist as a person late in pregnancy. At 12 weeks, I wasn’t “me” yet, because time and transformation had not occurred, and there was not sufficient brain development and function to exhibit my identity as a person. Aborting what would later become “me” would have been fine if my mom didn’t want future children. I wouldn’t have known or cared, because there was no entity capable of knowing, feeling, or experiencing anything at all.

You didn't amazingly pop into you mothers womb at 16 weeks, or whatever time frame suits your fancy. 16 weeks from what? You were 'you' at the beginning, at conception. Did you mother say "I'm pregnant" before the 16 weeks? She knew more than you do. You may as well say because you had no knowledge or awareness of anything outside the womb, you wouldn't have missed anything if you never popped out, even if you ceased to exist in the third trimester. What the fetus is or isn't aware of is insignificant. It (you) is a living human with development from the time of conception through the nine month gestation period to birth, and for the however many years forward you are alive, you are a developing work in progress.

And none of the stem cell sources you cite have the excellent qualities of fetal stem cells. They are terrific for using in the field of medicine. We need to be harvesting early pregnancy abortion fetuses and utilizing them as a tremendous resource to extend and improve life THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS.

Maybe you could start a warehouse?

[Stepnking]

Originally Posted by Marc Paolella

No one knows how life began, and it really doesn’t matter. Certainly no need to invent mythology to ”explain” it. Because it doesn’t.

If you don't know how it began, how do you know what is mythology and what isn't?.....other than your own bias.

[Marc Paolella]

Originally Posted by Stepnking

You didn't amazingly pop into you mothers womb at 16 weeks, or whatever time frame suits your fancy. 16 weeks from what? You were 'you' at the beginning, at conception. Did you mother say "I'm pregnant" before the 16 weeks? She knew more than you do. You may as well say because you had no knowledge or awareness of anything outside the womb, you wouldn't have missed anything if you never popped out, even if you ceased to exist in the third trimester. What the fetus is or isn't aware of is insignificant. It (you) is a living human with development from the time of conception through the nine month gestation period to birth, and for the however many years forward you are alive, you are a developing work in progress.Maybe you could start a warehouse?

No. There is nothing at conception worth noting. It’s a fertilized egg, nothing more. For you to call a fertilized egg a person requires a degree of indoctrination that is at both fascinating because it is so incoherently absurd, and alarming because so many people believe it. A fertilized egg is considered something that can be removed at will in most civilized and sensible countries in the world. We need to fight for and keep that.

In deciding on a solid rational time limit on abortion, we need to pick a good time after which the fetus is sufficiently transformed to be considered a person. Viability is excellent. Brain development is also excellent. I’d go for 24 weeks, although heroic technology occasionally reduces this to the low 20s. But I’m not going to use heroic situations. The typical preemie with no access to a state-of-the-art NICU is toast if born before 24 weeks. I could be convinced to drop it to 22 weeks, but that’s about it.

12-16 weeks is a slam dunk. No viability at all in 2021. So even allowing for those of irrational indoctrination, I’d compromise to 21 weeks. But that’s pretty much the limit.

[Marc Paolella]

Originally Posted by Stepnking

If you don't know how it began, how do you know what is mythology and what isn't?.....other than your own bias.

That’s what we call evidence. I want evidence that is demonstrable, testable, repeatable, and verifiable by others. Basic scientific intellectual discipline. And also a common sense rational standard that we ALL should be using in all matters. We need to stop accepting claims and assertions with no basis in reality and start applying basic scientific discipline to ascertain whether something someone says is true or real. Once there, all mysticism dies, and we become better people in a better world.

[Stepnking]

Originally Posted by Marc Paolella

No. There is nothing at conception worth noting. It’s a fertilized egg, nothing more. For you to call a fertilized egg a person requires a degree of indoctrination that is at both fascinating because it is so incoherently absurd, and alarming because so many people believe it. A fertilized egg is considered something that can be removed at will in most civilized and sensible countries in the world. We need to fight for and keep that.

Show me where I've called a fertilized egg a person. I'll say this for about the third time, I am not arguing 'personhood'. It is you who is arguing personhood must be achieved before a fetus deserves to live. And if the fertilized egg did not become 'you', who then? Someone else? I said your mothers fertilized egg was 'you'. That fertilized egg contained all the chromosomes and DNA that you and only you will ever possess. Contains all those unique and unchanging identifiers which will shape you and track you for the rest of your life. If that doesn't solidify your identity as to who you are, I don't know what does. I think the identity of who you are rather than than what you are is more important in the first weeks of development. Development will be everchanging through your entire life. Identity(DNA) will remain the same from conception to grave.

In deciding on a solid rational time limit on abortion, we need to pick a good time after which the fetus is sufficiently transformed to be considered a person. Viability is excellent. Brain development is also excellent. I’d go for 24 weeks, although heroic technology occasionally reduces this to the low 20s. But I’m not going to use heroic situations. The typical preemie with no access to a state-of-the-art NICU is toast if born before 24 weeks. I could be convinced to drop it to 22 weeks, but that’s about it.

12-16 weeks is a slam dunk. No viability at all in 2021. So even allowing for those of irrational indoctrination, I’d compromise to 21 weeks. But that’s pretty much the limit.

Sure pick a number, any number. Only the one that satisfies you doesn't necessarily satisfy everyone else. Viabliliy?, Brain development? You mean these are not surprises but something you actually expect to happen? How about that.

[Stepnking]

Originally Posted by Marc Paolella

That’s what we call evidence. I want evidence that is demonstrable, testable, repeatable, and verifiable by others. Basic scientific intellectual discipline. And also a common sense rational standard that we ALL should be using in all matters. We need to stop accepting claims and assertions with no basis in reality and start applying basic scientific discipline to ascertain whether something someone says is true or real. Once there, all mysticism dies, and we become better people in a better world.

Then I take it you lack the evidence.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by Stepnking

Then I take it you lack the evidence.

They don't need evidence for what they have fabricated in their heads. We've you been?