If you are a conservative - do you think we are going to lose (Canada, borders)
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I look at the lessons of history and I feel like there is little point fighting. The history of England is all about the Protestants vrs. the Catholics. To me, it sort of seems like the same thing now as the liberals and conservatives. The Protestants were more liberal / progressive and they won.
If you look at recent history in the USA you can see that every progressive push... faces a little push back but in the end... the conservative pushback is always overwhelmed by the "progressive" push.
I feel like there is a reason for this.
- the progressive message is always more appealing for the masses. It is always a message of *love* and *freedom* and *virtue* usually with financial benefits for those who are not smart or talented... and it is a message that those who are not very bright or critical thinkers (which is most of society) are happy to hear.
- looking back through history it does seem that people who are progressives simply have more time on their hands... they are more likely to be dreamers -- artists, unemployed -- while conservatives have family and jobs and simply don't have time to post on message boards, and send in letters to corporations, and protest.
- Everyone wants to be on the winning side. Perhaps I am a turncoat but I feel that the progressives are winning all around me and I feel like I had better just give in for my own benefit.. if I feel that way.. how many have already done so? Does this explain why politicians from congress to local boards are folding left and right? Same with corporations. All signs we are losing.
- I do suspect for a while now there has been voter fraud.. but not in any sort of organized way... just people who are progressives.. small and isolated around the country do what they can... but I think we have reached the tipping point where we will no longer be able to get fair and free elections... there are too many people joining the progressive cause.
Looking at history example it does seem that it just has to happen. We just have to go through it so that generations and see the good and the bad. Ultimately I do think there is some good.
- I do wonder about UBI. I do think the capitalist model is broken and destructive. It is no longer working the way is it supposed to. I do not want UBI but I think it is something that does need to be explored.
- I do happen to think electric cars / solar power / reasonable tech (not AI) are things we should be exploring -- It is just about making this country smart.
- The for profit model has imho ruined medical care and if we don't start pulling back the funds going to the "medical industry" they will become even more hazardous to our health. Single payer might be a way of keeping them under control and not a for profit industry that is very dangerous to the ability to get medical care.
- Housing is just absolutely out of control. I don't know who is buying these houses but not only am I almost priced out, but the speed at which any real estate property is being purchased is faster than I can get an offer in. This tells me that this market is broken...
You can argue that this is a liberal plan to control us... but the point is.. they are in charge at the moment and I don't see us able able to turn this around.
Not so much conservatism, but any politician that is pro constitution will lose. The powers that be are flooding the country with millions of immigrants that will be brainwashed to pick the candidates that they hand picked themselves. So it doesn't matter if they are Republican or Democrat, their policies will enrich the super elite and big corporations while crushing the small business owners and middle class. They will use special interest groups like the LBGTQ to destroy the first amendment (right to practice your religions) and the Black communities to attack the second amendment with strict gun control laws and the disbanding of our well regulated militia which are our local and state police forces.
Conservatives most certainly are not the representatives of freedom and liberty, especially with their culture war on LGBT rights, abortion rights, elections rights, recreational marijuana, and their unhealthy obsession with forcing people to play/(stand for) the national anthem.
In regards to who represents the "Live and Let Live" motto, that would depend on the topic. Both sides can be very authoritarian-like on certain issues while being relaxed on others, but neither side is relaxed on everything.
Well you are part right and if you want to start a thread on Libertarians vs Conservatives I will gladly educate you on the issue. Just understand we have a 2 party system , Republican and Democrat, within those 2 party's Conservatives such as Rand Paul , Mike lee and Thomas Massie are the most liberty and freedom minded in office, the farther left you move the farther away from liberty and freedom you get. The libertarian party is no longer what it used to be . It is now barely a spoiler party made up of dope smokin misfits and malcontents whos main focus is legalizing their drugs and propping up the gender benders. Many haven't a clue about the economic positions or benefits espoused by the likes of John Locke or Ludwig Von Mises.
The founding fathers weren't so much advocates of freedom, but localism. Where each community passed its own laws and regulated its own affairs. Thus if you and I disagree, then you can go to your community, and I can go to mine.
Even in pre-industrial times, this only worked so long as there was available somewhere out there, a community that comported with your values. In the 18th century, if you were an atheist, there was no point in seeking an atheist community, as there were none - at least not in what became the US.
What happens in modern America is a patchwork of policies. I agree with California on its stance towards abortion or drugs. I disagree regarding guns, regulation of nearly every kind, zoning or taxes. I agree with Texas on its stance towards income tax, building-codes and guns. I disagree on abortion, and nearly every other social-issue. So then, should I move to Texas, or California? It is a patchwork, and one has to make compromises.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Restrictions on freedom are not about hassling or disrespecting anyone. They are about the "Greater good". The stability, the security, the prosperity of society. If I actually believed these things were for the greater good, I would not oppose them, and neither would anyone else.
True enough, but if we legislate and enforce towards the "greater good", we inevitable wade into controversy. For some, the greater good is the salvation of their souls. Thus burning heretics is not only a service to the souls in question, but an advancement of the greater good. More to our time, for some, the loss of lives to coronavirus - any life - is unacceptable. So, no restrictions are too onerous or too costly, if they save so much as one life.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Ron Paul ran for president twice. He lost. Get over it.
Ron Paul, for all of his fine qualities, was somewhere between skeptical and outright antagonistic to Wall Street and free trade. I'm looking for a candidate who is "libertarian" on the social issues, but would otherwise be a darling of the US Chamber of Commerce.
This is an interesting idea, but the political divide in the US is far more complex than that which may have existed in nineteenth-century France.
Their differences may have been largely urban/rural, but our differences are black/white, male/female, citizen/immigrant, rich/poor, and much, much more.
The left (Democrats) are supported largely by blacks, immigrants and unmarried women.
The right (Republicans) are primarily supported by white males and females married to white males.
Urban areas are home to blacks and recent immigrants.
Most suburbs and practically all rural areas are inhabited by populations that are predominately white.
All of these groups have their own unique cultures and subcultures, so good luck breaking this down to an urban/rural political realignment.
I just don't see it.
The other divides you mentioned are not as nearly as big as the urban-rural divide.
All you need to do is look at a recent map of voting patterns by county to see what I'm talking about. I'm not even sure why I need to mention it, as it's become common knowledge.
There are still a few rural areas who go for democrats, but those tend to be either Indian reservations, ski towns, college towns, heavily black areas (in the South), and a few heavily Hispanic areas (in the Southwest). The only heavily white rural areas that go for democrats are in New England and parts of the Upper Midwest.
But those are the exception.
Among whites in particular, urban = democrats and rural = republican. Suburbs are increasingly democratic as well, even among whites, and the reason for that is suburban areas have more things in common with urban areas than with rural areas. That, in turn, is part of the filtering toward urban being more liberal and rural being more conservative. And since the suburbs are such a huge block of voters these days, it's why the liberal side will win.
Last edited by James Bond 007; 05-31-2021 at 04:48 PM..
Libertarians are something like 15% of the population. Republicans barely pay attention to you because you're the smallest wing of the party, and you're a bunch of degenerate potheads who don't make political donations.
Ron Paul ran for president twice. He lost. Get over it.
Do you even know the "roots" of the Republican Party? Do you think Abraham Lincoln was for "small government"? I can only assume you associate the Republican Party with Ronald Reagan. But although Reagan talked a lot about small government, he vastly increased government-spending, and tripled the national debt. He also started the war on drugs.
So in reality, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Look at the 1860 Republican national platform. Its fundamental principles follow those outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. All men are created equal with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, state sovereignty, denouncing the threats of disunion, the rights to citizenship and encouragement of American industy…and a bunch of stuff that isn’t really relevant in 2021.
Progressives are failing to imagine a better and achievable future. As the world runs out of fossil fuels, industrialized nations will reverse course back to what works with less energy, with various degrees of success or failure. "Alternative energy" is hopium, an excuse for not conserving energy and not accepting loss of personal luxuries and conveniences. Centuries from now, after the end of our civilization, a new civilization with new values will progress in new directions.
Do I think we are going to lose? In the world we are living in? Yes, but should we give up hope? Nope.
I was born in 1985 and have been a conservative since I was 14. I live in a beach community, orange country, southern California, although overwhelming majority of people my age or younger are liberal, if not strongly progressive, I do know quite a few are very conservative just like myself.
I have posted in this forum before, I know a lot of liberals looking down on women, people of color, veterans, working class. Unfortunately, I know too well what "they" truly believe behind their closed doors.
All these said, In order to "win" (whatever that means), we must accept the fact that we need allies. In fact, most people, when they truly examine their political stances are a combination of various positions from all over the map. Most people, believe it or not, are moderate, can be both liberal and conservative.
Younger voters (on average) are socially libertarian (more accepting of gay marriage, abortion). While these positions don't sit well with many old folks, especially religious folks, a large number of fiscal conservatives don't care very much about the social issues.
Last but not least, conservatives need to push the Republican party back to it's roots; back to the party that freed the slaves, pushed for equal rights for all people, (not just minority), and stood up against evil and villainy. Republican party needs to do is stop pandering to the left in the hopes that some of the liberals will accidentally run inside the wrong tent.
Do you brag that conservatives make way more money and are better looking
Progressives are failing to imagine a better and achievable future. As the world runs out of fossil fuels, industrialized nations will reverse course back to what works with less energy, with various degrees of success or failure. "Alternative energy" is hopium, an excuse for not conserving energy and not accepting loss of personal luxuries and conveniences. Centuries from now, after the end of our civilization, a new civilization with new values will progress in new directions.
The world is not running out of fossil fuels. Not anywhere close.
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