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Old 06-09-2021, 07:08 AM
 
21,430 posts, read 7,421,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Make the Palestinians citizens and allow them to vote for the Knesset. If they must be under the control of Israel, then give them a voice in government.
If they're going to vote as Israelis in Israel's interests, fine. If they're going to vote to undermine and destroy their host country not so much.
You can't make up some scenario and imagine what people will do.

It is their home, they will want what's best for their home, as all people do.

They live there, they should have a say in the government.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:15 AM
 
21,430 posts, read 7,421,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Make the Palestinians citizens and allow them to vote for the Knesset. If they must be under the control of Israel, then give them a voice in government.
You mean the Palestinians who elected leaders with the sworn goal to destroy Israel? You really think a country should give voting rights to foreigners who would like to see it weakened?

Liberals sure are willing to throw Israel to the wolves.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

What is it about this you don't understand?
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,716 posts, read 24,949,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
The order is wrong. You’re saying that Israel should give the Palestinians everything they want, but rescind it if they continue to attack Israel after that.

How about the Palestinians affirm, in writing, that they officially recognize Israel’s right to exist and will not attack it if Israel cedes them land they want? Then and only then will Israel grant them land. The answer is: HAMAS won’t allow it.

You cannot make peace with people who elect terrorists with the sworn goal to destroy you.
Also Israel has made it abundantly clear that they won't cede the occupied land under any conditions anyway. And then it's really irrelevant what Hamas will or will not allow anyway. Israel doesn't occupy the Gaza strip. They surround it, control the borders to it, and generally don't respect it's autonomy but they don't occupy it. They occupy the West Bank which Hamas has little to do with.

Negotiating anything with Hamas is pointless. They'll just break any negotiated terms at the earliest convenience anyway. Fatah, however, is not Hamas. Israel and Fatah might be able to coexist peacefully under a different Israeli government. Hypothetical and irrelevant under the current Israeli government anyway. Fatah won't accept a long-term peace without the occupied West Bank being ceded and Israel under no circumstances will cede the West Bank.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:23 AM
 
11,186 posts, read 6,487,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
I’m a center-left liberal, and I don’t think you could fairly characterize me as anti-Israel. They have an absolute right to exist.

But they are not doing themselves any favors by continuing to gaslight the Palestinians in the West Bank by continuing “settlements” and occupying the remainder. The offer should be 100 percent of unannexed land and no fragmentation of contiguous territory (e.g. Golan is off the table, Israel did annex it). Abandon the settlements that force fragmentation, and annex what Israel won’t give up. That offer should be written and public, with ALL provisions listed. If Israeli settlers insist on staying on unannexed land, cool, Palestine must offer them citizenship or permanent residency similar to what Israel did with the Golan.

If a two-state solution is the answer, it must be two STATES and not one fully independent (Israel) with a sort-of, restricted state on the other.

Unlike the 2000 offer, if it’s public-somewhat more difficult not to be serious about it, for either side.
The Palestinians wouldn't hesitate to reject any plan that keeps Jerusalem with Israel and doesn't have a right of return. There's no way your public ptoposal would put pressure on anyone to negotiate. DOA, in the trash can next to Trump's public proposal.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:33 AM
 
Location: New York Area
34,750 posts, read 16,767,477 times
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Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Then if the Palestinians continue to attack Israel, it will be an act of war between two separate countries, and Israel can respond as any other country on the planet would respond when attacked by another country.
Facially that's good. The problem is that in both 1967 and 1973 Israel came under unbearable pressure for a cease-fire when they gained the upper hand.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:38 AM
 
19,387 posts, read 6,475,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
You can't make up some scenario and imagine what people will do.

It is their home, they will want what's best for their home, as all people do.

They live there, they should have a say in the government.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
We don’t have to imagine what they will do. The Palestinians have elected terrorists that want to destroy Israel. All of a sudden Israel should give voting rights to people who have already shown, via their votes, that they want to weaken if not destroy Israel?

It seems that liberals have a lot of expectations of Jews that they would never expect of a non-Jewish country.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:39 AM
 
19,387 posts, read 6,475,260 times
Reputation: 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

What is it about this you don't understand?
Why don’t you understand that it is unreasonable to give voting rights to foreigners who hate your country?
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:40 AM
 
Location: New York Area
34,750 posts, read 16,767,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Why?

Harmless Canada's independence was phased; first, "responsible government" in the 1850's, meaning basically home rule, then "Dominion" status on July 1, 1867, then the vice-regal head of state being a Canadian, in the 1920's or 1930's, then control of foreign policy starting in 1931, then it's own embassies, I think in 1944 and at some point during WW II, command over its fighting troops. Why should an entity whose sworn aim is the destruction of its neighbor be given the keys to the legitimate use of military force and violence right away?
That’s not actually a bad idea, as long it’s publicly stated in writing what the timeline is and the conditions are CLEAR and not subject to interpretation by, say, a newly elected hard-right Israeli government-although the two situations are not analogous. Canada was a fundamental part of Britain’s empire. The West Bank is clearly occupied territory unless it was formally brought into Israel.

The key is to put the provisions in an offer out publicly. “Here’s the offer”. Quit with the back room deals. Both sides authorities have powerful incentives not to take anything that isn’t absolutely perfect for them, but if the average Palestinian knew what was on offer-that’d be a powerful incentive to take an actual fair deal.
First of all. in or about 1854 Britain did not announce a "timeline" for Canada's steps to full independence, which by the way did not formally conclude until the Constitution Act of either 1980 or 1981 when the Constitution was "repatriated" to Canada. Second of all Canada was not such an integral part. The Quebec Acts of 1774, for example, showed that the British victory in the Seven Years Was of 1755-63, concluding on the Plains of Abraham was not so conclusive. Quebec's special status haunts Canada to this day.

Any phased independence for "Palestine" would have to be dependent on their peaceful rather than pugilistic record.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:43 AM
 
21,430 posts, read 7,421,476 times
Reputation: 13233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

What is it about this you don't understand?
Why don’t you understand that it is unreasonable to give voting rights to foreigners who hate your country?
They are not foreigners.

They live there.

Maybe if Israel would recognize the fact that they are brothers and sisters ... and that is their home ... there could be some progress made.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,716 posts, read 24,949,937 times
Reputation: 18985
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Facially that's good. The problem is that in both 1967 and 1973 Israel came under unbearable pressure for a cease-fire when they gained the upper hand.
Thems the rubs when you are beholden to your sponsor states. Of course Israel could refuse but they get a lot of international aid which might dry up, access to advanced weapon systems, et cetera. The US would prefer that it not get sucked into a war in the region, so the billions do come with strings.
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