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Old 06-06-2021, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Rural Wisconsin
19,429 posts, read 8,979,040 times
Reputation: 37566

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Or at least that is my opinion.

NOTE: This post has been "triggered" by the following two current threads https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...unloading.html and https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...eir-image.html


I am a conservative, but the question applies to both left and right extremists. In my opinion, both are guilty of damaging what I would think are the main goals of the right and of the left. In my opinion -- and this is certainly open for debate! -- the left wants to advance the rights of everyone, even if that might affect the rights of the majority (currently, white heterosexual people who were born in the U.S.); and the right is concerned with holding onto the rights as outlined in the first ten amendments to the Constitution.

However, I believe that most people on the left do not hate white people or support many of the extremist left views, and most people on the right do support equal rights for all and do not hate anyone just because they are non-white, not cisgendered, etc. In short, I think that most people just want to be able to live their lives the way they want as long as doing so does not actually hurt anyone else (meaning that everyone is able to earn a good living and to have the freedom to live their lives however they want without being physically injured or bullied), which is what I personally believe.

But the problem, as I see it, is that some people on both sides of the political spectrum think that everyone should see the world as they themselves see it and to live their lives according to what they themselves think is right -- and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is racist, stupid, etc. And so when such people post comments that show just how bigoted they actually are -- by labeling ALL members of a certain group as "bad" -- it just reinforces in the minds of their opponents that many, if not most, of those who disagree with them are "haters".

(And as a side note, there are many conservative posters who ARE despicable bigots, and when I read some of their posts, it makes me angry that many liberals would lump me in with them because we each label ourselves as "conservatives", even though I do not share the extremists' hatred and bigotry of others; and I would think that many liberals would say the same for some of the extremist bigots on the left.)

So, although this is probably more of a vent than anything else, I just wish that people would not be so hateful toward those with whom they disagree -- and, again, I am talking about the extremists on BOTH sides.

Last edited by katharsis; 06-06-2021 at 10:42 AM..
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Old 06-06-2021, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Michigan
5,415 posts, read 6,051,820 times
Reputation: 7933
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
Or at least that is my opinion.

NOTE: This post has been "triggered" by the following two current threads https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...unloading.html and https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...eir-image.html


I am a conservative, but the question applies to both left and right extremists. In my opinion, both are guilty of damaging what I would think are the main goals of the right and of the left. In my opinion -- and this is certainly open for debate! -- the left wants to advance the rights of everyone, even it that might affect the rights of the majority (currently, white heterosexual people who were born in the U.S.); and the right is concerned with holding onto the rights as outlined in the first ten amendments to the Constitution.

However, I believe that most people on the left do not hate white people or support many of the extremist left views, and most people on the right do support equal rights for all and do not hate anyone just because they are non-white, not cisgendered, etc. In short, I think that most people just want to be able to live their lives the way they want as long as doing so does not actually hurt anyone else (meaning that everyone is able to earn a good living and to have the freedom to live their lives however they want without being physically injured or bullied), which is what I personally believe.

But the problem, as I see it, is that some people on both sides of the political spectrum think that everyone should see the world as they themselves see it and to live their lives according to what they themselves think is right -- and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is racist, stupid, etc. And so when such people post comments that show just how bigoted they actually are -- by labeling ALL members of a certain group as "bad" -- it just reinforces in the minds of their opponents that many, if not most, of those who disagree with them are "haters".

(And as a side note, there are many conservative posters who ARE despicable bigots, and when I read some of their posts, it makes me angry that many liberals would lump me in with them, even though I do not share the extremists' hatred and bigotry of others, because we each label ourselves as "conservatives"; and I would think that many liberals would say the same for some of the extremist bigots on the left.)

So, although this is probably more of a vent than anything else, I just wish that people would not be so hateful toward those with whom they disagree -- and, again, I am mainly talking about the extremists on BOTH sides.
Great post; I completely agree. Pushing the extremes, oversimplifying and over generalizing is done by both "sides." If one person on Side A does something dispicable then it is trotted out as "proof" that Side A is despicable. Also, the constant assertions that if someone is on Side B that means he or she "hates America" or "hates workers" or "hates XYZ." If someone disagrees with you regarding what is best for America, then supporting that belief does not mean that person hates America, simply that he or she disagrees on what is best. The knee-jerk reactions by some on both sides to not even understand there are real reasons for people to be on the other side is disheartening.
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:16 AM
 
Location: FL by way of NY
557 posts, read 292,226 times
Reputation: 1896
As a conservative, I am embarrassed that we as a group do not stand up and say what katharsis has more often.
My bleeding-heart liberal husband felt the same way about the far left.

These extreme views can only flourish when we as a group stay quiet and allow them to. It is time to stop the madness.
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,240,792 times
Reputation: 20827
In most cases, I'd agree with the OP, but there are exceptions:

Karl Marx was the progenitor of a poisonous philosophy that has figured in the death of millions of innocent human beings; yet it was another philosopher, from a similar ethnic background and religious (or non-religious) upbringing, who formulated some of the most effective arguments against Marxism; her name was Anna Rosenberg, later known as Ayn Rand.

In 1964, when the American nation was "fat and sassy" (but the storm clouds of Vietnam had yet to fully intensify, and the repercussions of a long-overdue reckoning on the issue of basic civil rights were yet to be felt), a Presidential candidate galvanized the support of millions of ordinary Americans -- admittedly, mostly white and shielded from some of the pressures building in the inner cities; his name was Barry Goldwater.

The point here us not the perceived hard line stance promoted by these individuals; it is that the viewpoints put forth, and advanced in a rational, respectful, and and non-violent manner, served as a rallying point for those among us who believed that neither the handful of radicals at the other end of the spectrum, nor the complacent politicians who sunk to "fear and smear" against a set of values they were too shallow to understand, had the right idea.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." (Barry Goldwater -- July 16, 1964)

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 06-06-2021 at 01:20 PM..
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:55 AM
 
Location: King County, WA
15,580 posts, read 6,317,765 times
Reputation: 13067
I think part of the logic of extremism is that by pushing for an extreme objective, they can at least accomplish part of what they want by inducing a need to compromise. The same logic applies to the excessive hyperbole we're seeing in politics. To a typical person though it can all look ridiculous, and it can cost a party independent support.
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:56 AM
 
6,828 posts, read 4,313,205 times
Reputation: 22335
Katharasis, I totally agree with you. I have voted for people from both parties. I miss the time when politicians worked together to get things done.
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:58 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
6,081 posts, read 4,552,501 times
Reputation: 10547
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
Or at least that is my opinion.

NOTE: This post has been "triggered" by the following two current threads https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...unloading.html and https://www.city-data.com/forum/poli...eir-image.html


I am a conservative, but the question applies to both left and right extremists. In my opinion, both are guilty of damaging what I would think are the main goals of the right and of the left. In my opinion -- and this is certainly open for debate! -- the left wants to advance the rights of everyone, even if that might affect the rights of the majority (currently, white heterosexual people who were born in the U.S.); and the right is concerned with holding onto the rights as outlined in the first ten amendments to the Constitution.

However, I believe that most people on the left do not hate white people or support many of the extremist left views, and most people on the right do support equal rights for all and do not hate anyone just because they are non-white, not cisgendered, etc. In short, I think that most people just want to be able to live their lives the way they want as long as doing so does not actually hurt anyone else (meaning that everyone is able to earn a good living and to have the freedom to live their lives however they want without being physically injured or bullied), which is what I personally believe.

But the problem, as I see it, is that some people on both sides of the political spectrum think that everyone should see the world as they themselves see it and to live their lives according to what they themselves think is right -- and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is racist, stupid, etc. And so when such people post comments that show just how bigoted they actually are -- by labeling ALL members of a certain group as "bad" -- it just reinforces in the minds of their opponents that many, if not most, of those who disagree with them are "haters".

(And as a side note, there are many conservative posters who ARE despicable bigots, and when I read some of their posts, it makes me angry that many liberals would lump me in with them because we each label ourselves as "conservatives", even though I do not share the extremists' hatred and bigotry of others; and I would think that many liberals would say the same for some of the extremist bigots on the left.)

So, although this is probably more of a vent than anything else, I just wish that people would not be so hateful toward those with whom they disagree -- and, again, I am talking about the extremists on BOTH sides.
As a left leaning Independent who probably holds some different political opinions than you do, I strongly agree with the sentiment that you're expressing, when it comes to people in real life or on this forum. I wish I could rep. you for this post but I got the annoying message "you must spread reputation around before giving it to katharsis again." So I'll publicly say I'd rep. you if I could (+1 at least).

I may feel passionately about some issues that I have a strong belief in, and express that, along with points that others make that are diametrically opposed to my own in what I believe is a logically fallacious way, and you or other posters may do the same too. That's fine, but that's really all it's about rather than some personal vendetta as far as I'm concerned, but I know there are those who can't or don't separate those two things out.

Also, there's a perception that people who hold different beliefs support others who act destructively, for example, in destroying property or resorting in violence in trying to enforce that belief onto others by force. I certainly don't nor do I believe the majority of liberals or conservatives do that or support it, but there are some folks who persist in trying to divisively paint it as if a destructive but vocal minority speaks for everyone.

Last edited by Jowel; 06-06-2021 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 06-06-2021, 01:17 PM
 
Location: FL by way of NY
557 posts, read 292,226 times
Reputation: 1896
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Karl Marx was the progenitor of a poisonous philosophy that has figured in the death of millions of innocent human beings
OMG! So Communism bastardized Karl Marx's socialistic theory of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" into Lenin's/Stalin's proletariat, and he is somehow responsible for that?

Well then, let's tear down every tribute to the Wright Brother's. Their invention of the airplane allowed 9/11 to happen.

Let's vilify Ernest Rutherford, he first documented nuclear fusion which led to the eventual building of the nuclear bomb.

3/4 of all murders in the US are caused by firearms. Technically the 1st firearm was invented by the Chinese in the 10th century so let's blame them.


You do know that socialism in its theoretical form is the perfect economic model, correct? However, Marx built his basis on philosopher G.W.F. Hegel notion that government strives to be kind and good. We have since learned that basis is fundamentally flawed. We have come to understand that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Karl Marx's theories provide the foundation for Keynesian economics, upon which much of the world's economy is still based. So let's go back to bartering chicken's because Karl Marx's poisonous philosophy killed millions of people.
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Old 06-06-2021, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Rural Wisconsin
19,429 posts, read 8,979,040 times
Reputation: 37566
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
I think part of the logic of extremism is that by pushing for an extreme objective, they can at least accomplish part of what they want by inducing a need to compromise. The same logic applies to the excessive hyperbole we're seeing in politics. To a typical person though it can all look ridiculous, and it can cost a party independent support.
Yes, I understand about asking for 12 concessions with the hope of getting even two (for example), but why do some people think that making hateful, angry statements will do anything but create hostility by the other "side"? Is someone more likely to listen to someone and consider their viewpoint if they come across as calm, rational and at least civil -- or to someone who comes across as unhinged? But then again, how many parents give in to their screaming toddler who is demanding candy in a supermarket check-out line just to get them to be quiet? Too many, I fear.

(However, just to clarify, I was talking about forum posters in my OP, not politicians or union representatives.)
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Old 06-06-2021, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
2,369 posts, read 897,159 times
Reputation: 2300
Social media has a polarizing effect. The liberals may lump you together with the bigots. But what may be worse, is being attacked by fellow conservatives when you don't agree with every item on their agenda. Or what if you are liberal but you don't check all the boxes there?

What we have is a competition between two teams. There isn't a lot of tolerance for moderates (ambiguity) because people want to know which side you're on, are you friend or foe. Unfortunately that's the current political divide of our country.

Fortunately in real life it's ok to be moderate. You can be conservative or liberal, and I'll still give you a ride to where you need to go.
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