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If a male is being given a blow job by a pre-op trans female and he has not groped her southern region it is not easy to tell - and that is the situation in which the problem with non-disclosure arises. Trans females have been maimed and even killed as a result. That male did not consent to a person with a penis preforming oral sex on him.
What difference does pre/post op really make?
You really think Etude would have been fine getting a blowjob from a post-op as opposed to a pre-op trans female? He'd be less likely to find out about it and regret it and thus less likely to murder a post-op trans female after regretting consensual sex is really the only difference I can see.
This is not a debate about transgenderism in general and debating it would be off topic. It is strictly about whether a transgendered individual has an obligation to disclose their status prior to sexual activity.
One of the arguments in the date rape of inebriated individuals is that they were incapable of fully consenting to the sexual activity they engaged in, this includes if they agreed to say oral sex and it morphs into coitus. Additionally, it is considered rape if they agree to sex with one person and instead a different person pretending to be that person has sex with them (true case). So, how is it different if in the below instance when a man thought he was consenting to sex with a woman and it turns out to be a man?
Properly functional bilateral relationships are equitable. Or said another way, when both parties are on the same page. Some examples of dysfunctional bilateral relationship behaviors would be -
Stalking - Taking long intimate walks with your lover but only one of you knows it.
Date rape - Having sex with your partner but only one of you is aware of it.
Mail fraud - Advertising and selling a product but delivering another.
I feel like transgender non-disclosure sex might be the Venn diagram overlap of stalking, date rape and mail fraud. Not as bad as rape, more personally invasive than stalking and equally annoying as mail fraud. ... Like when you pay for a name brand product that you like very much but open the package to find that you've gotten a knock-off.
I don't think this rises to any sort of legal issue but it would be some serious bu!!$it to get played like that. Honesty is best.
So if a 15-year-old lies to some middle-aged man and claims she is really 19, the middle-aged guy then when he gets charged with statutory rape say, woah, woah there. I'm the real victim here. That heinous 15-year-old predator lied about her age and told me she was 19.
The point being, is that consent is conditional on the truth - in both instances, something bad will happen to one person acting in good faith, because the other person wasn't truthful, and the consent was meaningless.
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How about the case where I put on a wig or just don't take my hat off and then after the fact a partner gets a case of the old regret sex and is like, oh my God, he's going bald. Like so gross. I obviously was not fully consenting because I'd never hook up with a guy who is going bald. Or maybe I'm going out with a lady that's got what appear to be fantastic breasts and it turns out it's all just an illusion. Dagnammit, she should have told me they were barely a B cup. Obviously this deceitful woman knew that men like large breasts and was just being a deceitful rape/sexual assaulter type as I'd never waste my time on her.
This is the same old same old - preferences in hair style and breast size, compared to something as fundamental as sexual orientation - some agenda at work here I suspect, perhaps an attempt to brainwashing the population into thinking we're one big happy rainbow community of people without any pesky orientation, happy to do it with anyone no questions asked..... "all that we ask is that hetros just lie back and let the heroic trans folk do their thing.... make them feel like a real woman or real men"
If a male is being given a blow job by a pre-op trans female and he has not groped her southern region it is not easy to tell - and that is the situation in which the problem with non-disclosure arises. Trans females have been maimed and even killed as a result. That male did not consent to a person with a penis preforming oral sex on him.
Did the man in this case ask? Or did the man just agree to receiving a BJ from a person that they had just met and knew nothing about? IF the person agreed to receiving a BJ they did in fact consent to receiving sexual favors from the person that was giving.
Sorry that you don't like the laws regarding consent in this country, maybe you should campaign to get them changed, but I don't think many will like the probable outcome. If deceit to get consent becomes rape under the law, then we will need many more prisons.
You really think Etude would have been fine getting a blowjob from a post-op as opposed to a pre-op trans female? He'd be less likely to find out about it and regret it and thus less likely to murder a post-op trans female after regretting consensual sex is really the only difference I can see.
There would be a person who would still be alive and a 19 year-old planning his second year of college instead of rotting in jail. I consider that a rather significant difference myself.
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The point being of course , is that the consent is conditional on the truth.
This is the same old same old - preferences in hair style and breast size, compared to something as fundamental as sexual orientation - some agenda at work here I suspect, perhaps an attempt to brainwashing the population into thinking we're one big happy rainbow community of people without any pesky orientation, happy to do it with anyone no questions asked..... "all that we ask is that hetros just lie back and let the heroic trans folk do their thing.... make them feel like a real woman"
It's the slippery slope argument actually. Once you go down it, you start get to the absurdities. It's why jurisdictions avoid make broad definitions of deception rape laws. If this type of deception is a form of rape, then why not this other form of rape.
It's a tricky subject for legislators and even more so for courts when making case law that they know will then be cited in other cases. The examples intentional absurd, but that's where the line of logic ultimately leads to is absurdity and why deception rape is so very narrowly defined.
It's the slippery slope argument actually. Once you go down it, you start get to the absurdities. It's why jurisdictions avoid make broad definitions of deception rape laws. If this type of deception is a form of rape, then why not this other form of rape.
Only if you argue a preference for breast size is a fundamental to a human being as sexual orientation - sexual orientation isn't absurd, someone lying about their favourite sitcom to try and get sex, is absurd.
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It's a tricky subject for legislators and even more so for courts when making case law that they know will then be cited in other cases. The examples intentional absurd, but that's where the line of logic ultimately leads to is absurdity and why deception rape is so very narrowly defined.
I don't see why - do legislators struggle with differentiating the intentional undermining of sexual orientation through deceit, from some guy claiming he only slept with a women because he thought she had ginormous breasts when she didn't?
Did the man in this case ask? Or did the man just agree to receiving a BJ from a person that they had just met and knew nothing about? IF the person agreed to receiving a BJ they did in fact consent to receiving sexual favors from the person that was giving.
Sorry that you don't like the laws regarding consent in this country, maybe you should campaign to get them changed, but I don't think many will like the probable outcome. If deceit to get consent becomes rape under the law, then we will need many more prisons.
Why in the hell would you ask? Seriously, are we now at the point where you need to ask the people you date, “What genitalia were you born with?” I am so glad I am an old married person who doesn’t have to navigate this new world.
In the case in the opening post they “met” on Tinder, a dating site, where the trans female was listed as a female looking for a male on their profile. Why would you not just disclose? If the answer is because they don’t want to be rejected that means they know some people might have issues with getting in a sexual relation with them because they are trans.
Yeah, I get it, legally this probably dead in the water in this country. That only means more dead or beaten up trans females and those they were dishonest with serving long prison terms.... two destroyed lives which could have been avoided with honesty by the one who knew there might be a problem.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
There would be a person who would still be alive and a 19 year-old planning his second year of college instead of rotting in jail. I consider that a rather significant difference myself.
We're into hypothetical land now, but I do think you have an inaccurate perception of how convincing reassignment surgery is.
"Angie" with in all likelihood no HRT and no reassignment surgery gets away with it once and is murdered on the second visit. "Angie" with HRT and reassignment does likely get away with it the second time, I agree. But they've already met up twice and probably will again. And eventually it's likely to go farther than groping of the southern quarters, and it's really not going to pass scrutiny on closer inspection. Maybe it doesn't for this 19-year-old and this "Angie," but it's not a unique problem to this 19-year-old and this "Angie" that people do often react violently when they do find out they've been having sex with someone who is transgender.
Why in the hell would you ask? Seriously, are we now at the point where you need to ask the people you date, “What genitalia were you born with?” I am so glad I am an old married person who doesn’t have to navigate this new world.
In the case in the opening post they “met” on Tinder, a dating site, where the trans female was listed as a female looking for a male on their profile. Why would you not just disclose? If the answer is because they don’t want to be rejected that means they know some people might have issues with getting in a sexual relation with them because they are trans.
Yeah, I get it, legally this probably dead in the water in this country. That only means more dead or beaten up trans females and those they were dishonest with serving long prison terms.... two destroyed lives which could have been avoided with honesty by the one who knew there might be a problem.
If it is of such great concern to a person that they would kill over it, they may want to make sure they know who they are consenting to receive a BJ from. Regret after finding out the truth doesn't invalidate the consent you gave before and while the act was happening
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