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True, but of course it depends on the position. An engineer absolutely needs an engineering degree. A marketing coordinator does not.
What I’ve found is that the most problematic employees are those with a RECENT college degree. They come out convinced that they are of the utmost value, despite little to no actual experience, and get an attitude when a task is assigned they consider below them.
They do not.
My uncle retired a few years ago, worked for 30 some years mostly with Boston Scientific and subsidiaries thereof as an electrical engineer. He had some junior college and took a few correspondence courses while in the army. Learned how to layout and print PCBs in the army and just ran with it. Most of it was on the hardware side but he was a decent programmer as well.
Or of course there's the Zuckster and Musk. Both college dropout and engineers, at least initially. Now they're probably not doing so much actual engineering any longer. Some types of engineering you need a license which requires a degree to do certain work, civil engineer for example, but it's not like an M.D. where you just have to have the piece of paper. The paper helps but companies hire engineers without degrees all the time that do actual engineering work as opposed "sanitary engineers" who are just janitors.
Honestly this is a tremendous opportunity to found a classically liberal college where woke Critical Theory nonsense is completely banned and admissions are merit based only. Will attract all the top students
A lot of colleges are getting away from using SAT and ACT. They're good predictors of good test takers, and kids who in general are educated. They're of zero value in predicting which kids are hard workers and creative thinkers.
There's a reason the major universities are leaning away from standardized testing as a whole screening criteria.
I had a college recruiter tell me to my face that if the kid has a high SAT but is in the middle of his class, that's a huge ding.
Lots of kids who have high SAT and ACT scores are the ones who arrive at college, and hunker in their dorm rooms and don't attend classes.
While the opposite is true - low test scorers don't tend to be able to succeed in college, it's not true that very high test scorers are the ones who go on to be the most successful students, and successful in careers post college.
The reason that colleges are moving away from standardized test scores is because it makes it harder to justify how they are admitting blacks with much worse test scores than whites. So..... get rid of the test scores!
My uncle retired a few years ago, worked for 30 some years mostly with Boston Scientific and subsidiaries thereof as an electrical engineer. He had some junior college and took a few correspondence courses while in the army. Learned how to layout and print PCBs in the army and just ran with it. Most of it was on the hardware side but he was a decent programmer as well.
Or of course there's the Zuckster and Musk. Both college dropout and engineers, at least initially. Now they're probably not doing so much actual engineering any longer. Some types of engineering you need a license which requires a degree to do certain work, civil engineer for example, but it's not like an M.D. where you just have to have the piece of paper. The paper helps but companies hire engineers without degrees all the time that do actual engineering work as opposed "sanitary engineers" who are just janitors.
Printing PCBs or doing layout does not an engineer make. A real engineer, designing complex electronic systems that would be used in space missions and the like, would never get a job without first demonstrating he had the intelligence, discipline, and motivation to succeed with an engineering degree.
You are demeaning engineers. Is this some weird way to “equalize” everyone and claim college isn’t necessary for even the most complex fields that require extensive education?
Only a matter of time before grades are deemed sexist and outdated... So apparently the only way to appease the masses is to dramatically lower the bar.
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Originally Posted by Rachel976
The reason that colleges are moving away from standardized test scores is because it makes it harder to justify how they are admitting blacks with much worse test scores than whites. So..... get rid of the test scores!
That's not what I'm hearing from colleges.
That's why when they added the essay portion of the test, they didn't use it to determine admissions - they wanted the data to show whether or not an excellent essay predicted future student success. It turns out, it is a fairly good indicator of academic ability.
They want to be able to predict which students will reflect favorably, and SAT's not the best indicator, when taken alone.
Class rank is an excellent tool, though.
If you have a metric where you grade the school for rigor, and filter class rank into that metric, you've got an excellent indicator of which applicants will likely thrive in college.
That's why when they added the essay portion of the test, they didn't use it to determine admissions - they wanted the data to show whether or not an excellent essay predicted future student success. It turns out, it is a fairly good indicator of academic ability.
They want to be able to predict which students will reflect favorably, and SAT's not the best indicator, when taken alone.
Class rank is an excellent tool, though.
If you have a metric where you grade the school for rigor, and filter class rank into that metric, you've got an excellent indicator of which applicants will likely thrive in college.
I’ve worked in higher ed admissions and had a front-row seat to discussions in which tests were revamped in order to minimize the difference between scores of admitted blacks and admitted whites.
That's why when they added the essay portion of the test, they didn't use it to determine admissions - they wanted the data to show whether or not an excellent essay predicted future student success. It turns out, it is a fairly good indicator of academic ability.
They want to be able to predict which students will reflect favorably, and SAT's not the best indicator, when taken alone.
Class rank is an excellent tool, though.
If you have a metric where you grade the school for rigor, and filter class rank into that metric, you've got an excellent indicator of which applicants will likely thrive in college.
This is a little bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable on this. What do colleges think of a student who does well in a highly rated and competitive high school, as in has nearly all As and just 3-4 B+ grades, takes mostly AP classes and does well (again, mostly A’s), But has kind of average SAT scores?
I ask, because my daughter falls into this category. She’s a very smart kid, works hard, but has the worst test anxiety I have ever seen. Last time, she got so stressed that she sat and did nothing for the first 30 minutes of the SAT and ended up rushing to finish the section (she managed but with no time to review). She still managed to get an 1100 total on it, but I know her intelligence and work ethic should be reflected in a higher score. We are still waiting for the last SAT scores to come in to see how she did.
The reason she does so well in school despite having test anxiety is because tests don’t seem to count as much toward grades as things like projects, papers, and labs. She aces those things. The only classwork tests seem to count more is in math classes and she finds all math to be extremely easy. She says you just know how to solve the problems you don’t have to worry about anything being subjective.
She’s got the grades, she’s got tons of volunteer work, she’s very involved in the high school marching band and National Honor Society, it’s just those darn test scores! She’s going to be working on her essays this summer. But knowing that she can’t seem to get the really good scores on the SAT are adding to her anxiety because she’s not sure if colleges she wants to go to will accept her or not. It doesn’t help but some of the seniors that she knew through marching band didn’t get into the schools they wanted to get into despite having good grades and high SAT scores. Interestingly, a lot of the school she’s applying to are making SAT scores optional due to the pandemic. I don’t know if they’ll still be optional when she applies.
Sorry to hijack this thread a little. The topic caught my eye as the parent of a kid who will applying to colleges soon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkingLiberty1919D
This is a little bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable on this. What do colleges think of a student who does well in a highly rated and competitive high school, as in has nearly all As and just 3-4 B+ grades, takes mostly AP classes and does well (again, mostly A’s), But has kind of average SAT scores?
I ask, because my daughter falls into this category. She’s a very smart kid, works hard, but has the worst test anxiety I have ever seen. Last time, she got so stressed that she sat and did nothing for the first 30 minutes of the SAT and ended up rushing to finish the section (she managed but with no time to review). She still managed to get an 1100 total on it, but I know her intelligence and work ethic should be reflected in a higher score. We are still waiting for the last SAT scores to come in to see how she did.
The reason she does so well in school despite having test anxiety is because tests don’t seem to count as much toward grades as things like projects, papers, and labs. She aces those things. The only classwork tests seem to count more is in math classes and she finds all math to be extremely easy. She says you just know how to solve the problems you don’t have to worry about anything being subjective.
She’s got the grades, she’s got tons of volunteer work, she’s very involved in the high school marching band and National Honor Society, it’s just those darn test scores! She’s going to be working on her essays this summer. But knowing that she can’t seem to get the really good scores on the SAT are adding to her anxiety because she’s not sure if colleges she wants to go to will accept her or not. It doesn’t help but some of the seniors that she knew through marching band didn’t get into the schools they wanted to get into despite having good grades and high SAT scores. Interestingly, a lot of the school she’s applying to are making SAT scores optional due to the pandemic. I don’t know if they’ll still be optional when she applies.
Sorry to hijack this thread a little. The topic caught my eye as the parent of a kid who will applying to colleges soon.
You know how you see some kids who surprise everyone by getting in when other students who seemingly had more accomplishments don't? Your daughter sounds like she might fall into this category. If her class rank is high in an excellent high school, but her SAT scores are average, that speaks very well of her.
Is there still time for her to take a course in how to take the SAT, and retake it? The KAPLAN course is excellent, although expensive, and they guarantee a large boost in points after their course.
Sounds like she'll do great.
edited to add: Her activities will also help a lot. She's into a lot of stuff!
Printing PCBs or doing layout does not an engineer make. A real engineer, designing complex electronic systems that would be used in space missions and the like, would never get a job without first demonstrating he had the intelligence, discipline, and motivation to succeed with an engineering degree.
You are demeaning engineers. Is this some weird way to “equalize” everyone and claim college isn’t necessary for even the most complex fields that require extensive education?
Layout is engineering work. Engineering, especially electrical/computer, isn't a field that's particularly obsessed with pieces of paper so the lack thereof isn't much of an impediment to advancing. It's really just helpful for getting your foot in the door.
Other fields are much more obsessed with pieces of paper. My first career was accounting. No piece of paper, no eligible for CPA or in my case CMA exam or other piece of paper. Without the right pieces of paper you'll never advance. I worked under CMAs until I got my certification. I did the work, but only in a supervised capacity and without the certification I'd never be eligible for promotions. There's some good bookkeepers out there who can definitely do, and do do, fairly high-level accounting work. But their piece of paper says bookkeeper and thus they shall remain until they go get a degree. And then when they do they'll start from the bottom and pay their dues just like everyone else. Accountants are accountants and bookkeepers are bookkeepers regardless of whether or not the bookkeeper is more knowledgeable and a better accountant than the accountant is.
I just never fit in that piece of paper world too well. It's not like I'm a bitter bookkeeper. I had the piece of paper from a four-year college, had the piece of paper from the IMA, but I just wasn't into it. Going back for another piece of paper to do the same work for I was already doing for 15% more money to be able to advance any farther just wasn't something I was interested in doing.
Last edited by Malloric; 06-21-2021 at 01:07 PM..
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