Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-18-2021, 07:06 AM
 
43 posts, read 24,949 times
Reputation: 20

Advertisements

The US recently murdered 10 innocent civilians in a drone strike in Kabul. Not 1 enemy person was killed by the drone attack .... ONLY 10 innocent civilians were killed by the US.


The perpetrators/planners of this flawed attack will **OF COURSE** escape ALL punishment, ALL prosecution & US leaders will bear **ZERO** responsibility.


Imagine the outrage in the US if a foreign country sent a drone to the US to attack a military target, but instead the drone attack killed 10 innocent civilians. The US would call it a "war crime" and would attempt to hunt down and kill those responsible.


In other words .... In the US if someone else does it to the US then it's called a "shocking terrorist crime", but if the US does it to another country it's "oh we are sorry for our mistake. Bye bye".


What a weak, immoral stance from the US. The US perpetrators of this shocking, inhumane crime deserve severe punishment for their cowardly, inhumane killings with that drone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-18-2021, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
23,864 posts, read 24,108,334 times
Reputation: 15135
They're standing by their intelligence. War is hell, collateral damage, etc. That's their excuse, and nothing is going to come of it. Get used to that fact and focus your energy somewhere it can have an effect, is my advice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 07:15 AM
 
43 posts, read 24,949 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by swagger View Post
They're standing by their intelligence. War is hell, collateral damage, etc. That's their excuse, and nothing is going to come of it. Get used to that fact and focus your energy somewhere it can have an effect, is my advice.

Accepting evil, murderous behavior in that way only encourages the perpetrators (on ALL sides of any dispute/war) to continue with their war crimes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,215 posts, read 11,333,999 times
Reputation: 20828
Since the replacement of feudalism by the nation-state and the replacement of mercantilism and colonialism with a self-regualating system of international trade, the developed world has always requred a policeman. That role was first assumed by (and weakened) Spain and France. It then fell to the British who, wisely and gradually abdicated in favot of their North American cousins.

That role can't be abolished or eliminated, and we can all be thankful that it wasn't allowed to fall to the Nazis, Marxists, or other butcher-states which arose during the 1930s (democracy's lowest ebb since its beginnings in the Enlightenment half a millenium ago. Nor can it be allowed to succumb to collection of losers and wannabee-pirates such as arise regularly in the less-developed world.

Unfortunalely, global policemen make tragic mistakes -- there is no perfection on this side of the cemetery. The leading nations of the First World have attempted the first slow steps toward cooperation but there will always be dissenting voices -- and some of those dissenters will actually have little more in mind than their own pursuit of power, usually under the false flag of some "greter common good".

If the OP wants to whine about "war crimes" there are plenty of other incidences, and other places -- even some of them of them of fairly recent date, and in "civilized" Europe (Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia) which could be cited; but the United States is a much more popular villain.

In the OP's own words (from another thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sung View Post
Both Trump and Biden wanted America to run away from the innocent Afghanistan people and hand over domination in Afghanistan to the murderous Taliban.
BOTH sides of politics in America are to blame.
America = cowardice and desertion of an innocent population.
BOTH the Taliban and the previous Afghanistan government are corrupt, murderous, controlling.
The actual citizens of Afghanistan are INNOCENT victims of American cowardice, the murderous Taliban and the previous corrupt Afghanistan government.
We Americans should be ashamed of BOTH sides of American politics. We have shown that our nation is a weak and cowardly nation. We run away when things get too hard.
But you can't have it BOTH ways.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 09-18-2021 at 08:09 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:04 PM
 
1,872 posts, read 649,072 times
Reputation: 952
Disclosure: Am USAF veteran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sung View Post
The US recently murdered 10 innocent civilians in a drone strike in Kabul. Not 1 enemy person was killed by the drone attack .... ONLY 10 innocent civilians were killed by the US.
Flawed intelligence mitigate the murder charge. The word 'murder' involves full knowledge of the target's characters and the attacker's intent with said full knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sung View Post
Imagine the outrage in the US if a foreign country sent a drone to the US to attack a military target, but instead the drone attack killed 10 innocent civilians. The US would call it a "war crime" and would attempt to hunt down and kill those responsible.
It depends.

How was the target changed from 'military' to 'civilian'? If the change was from a technical error, then it is not a war crime. The technical issues includes intelligence error, some kind of hard/soft ware malfunction, and even the weather can factored in.

The problem for the charge of 'war crime' is compounded by the way the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters conduct themselves.

Under Geneva Convention III Treatment of Prisoners of War, 12 August 1949, there is the concept of a 'privileged combatant', meaning one is allowed to kill without LEGAL repercussions. Companion to the 'privileged combatant' is the concept of the 'legal target', meaning one who fits certain criteria cannot be killed in the course of a war.

So what made me, when I was active duty, a 'privileged combatant' ?
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
It does not matter my job. The moment became a UNIFORMED member of the US military, all of the above criteria applied.

But that does not mean I am 'licensed to kill'. The second concept, that of a 'legal target', comes into play.

So who would be my 'legal target'? Anyone who fit the 'privileged combatant' criteria.

In other words, soldiers can kill soldiers, airman against airman, and sailors against sailors. All legal. There are finer points regarding those who surrendered or wounded, but we can leave that for another discussion. Another finer point is that the chaplain, while a uniformed member, is not a 'privileged combatant' therefore an 'illegal target', meaning the chaplain cannot kill and cannot be killed without LEGAL consequences.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters falls under item 'a': That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

But they stopped at 'a'.

No one forced them to stop at 'a'. Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters do not have to wear camo-ed BDU or anything like Western militaries do. They can wear distinctive turbans, armbands, or different robes for all we care. As long as they made themselves standouts from non-combatants, item 'b' would apply and make them 'privileged combatant'. But since they refused to comply with 'b' they are not 'privileged combatants'.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters often do not comply with item 'c', that of carrying weapons in the open. The reason for this requirement is philosophical in that if you carry weapons, you must be a 'man-at-arms'. The corollary to this requirement is that you must somehow be physically apart from non-combatants as much as possible. In other words, no mingling with non-combatants. Failure to comply made Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters not 'privileged combatants'.

Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters do not respect the long list of what constitutes 'honorable combat', aka those laws and customs of war. Executions of POWs without trials, for one example. Using 'human shields', for another example. Drafting of lower than 18 yrs of age into its ranks, for another example. Refusal to comply with 'd' make them not 'privileged combatant'.

If you are not a 'privileged combatant', you are an 'illegal combatant', then you can be killed and those who killed you will face no LEGAL repercussions.

But precisely because Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters uses human shields, hide their weapons when convenient, and do not separate themselves from non-combatants, we have to rely on HUMINT to tell us who is or is not a 'legal target'. In this event, HUMINT failed US. We can say that the US was negligent and/or hasty to pull the trigger, but not necessarily 'murderous', as in we know EXACTLY those people were 'illegal targets' and killed them.

There is a reason why I used the word 'non-combatant' and not 'civilian'.

Legally speaking, all Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters are civilians. Back in WW II, militias resisting Nazi occupations were legally civilians. But they were combatants. Many of them conformed to general principles of a uniformed military. Many did not. The current Geneva Convention were created after WW II but we can apply the conventions post hoc, for the sake of discussion.

When I was active duty, can I somehow become an 'illegal combatant'? Yes. Any uniformed member of any military is legally obligated to be in uniform when in combat operations. Just to use three examples: if I discard my uniform and fight, or discard my uniform and don civilian clothing to conduct reconnaissance, or put on the Red Cross emblem, I become an 'illegal combatant'.

If I discard my uniform and conduct reconnaissance operations, then if I am captured, I do not earn POW status and the enemy can execute me on the spot with no legal repercussions. I was a soldier turned spy, therefore, forfeited all Geneva Convention protections.

If I got shot down and survived, can I discard my uniform, don 'civilian' clothes, and mingle with the general population to escape detection/capture? This is a grey area. You cannot deny the human urge for self preservation. I can argue that since all I did was hide, I have Geneva Convention protections as a POW. But the enemy can execute me because I was out of uniform and did it deliberately.

In the movie 'The Dirty Dozen', in an exercise the team disguised themselves as medics and took over some critical targets. What they did was illegal under accepted customs of war. Philosophically speaking, medics should be protected but they must display prominently on their persons the Red Cross, or the Red Crescent, or any other emblem signifying humanitarian missions. It is illegal to kill any medic if the medic conformed to the requirements. In the fog of war, such is not always observed but the legal requirements are still there for all sides. So when the Dirty Dozen disguised themselves as medics, they put all medics in danger. There are finer distinctions between a medic and someone who is a combatant but have medical training, like the USAF Pararescue airmen. PJs are NOT medics. PJs are 'privileged combatants' therefore 'legal targets'.

The list of legal issues in war is beyond the scope of this discussion/debate, and is long enough to warrant a full military career devoted to that list.

What I posted is not meant to excuse the tragedy but to point out the moral dangers of the charge of 'murder' without knowing the legality and the details of the event. The word 'murder' is both a legal and emotionally incendiary charge. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda know full well that Western mililtaries observed the Geneva Convention and WILL exploit what they believe to be a weakness. When I got orders to deploy to Desert Storm, part of the deployment included a briefing on how the Iraqi Army, despite being a formal army, WILL, not merely suspected, of resorting to illegal means of combat, and that allied forces are still expected to obey the Geneva Convention no matter what the Iraqi Army do. Like it or not, that part of the world is not as legally and morally sophisticated as the West. Call me a bigot, if you want, but for anyone, civilian or military, have been over to the ME, quickly he will see the truths about the society there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
2,367 posts, read 909,253 times
Reputation: 2301
You've probably heard of the Brereton report that came out of Australia about war crimes committed in Afghanistan. There are accounts of wrongdoing by American troops as well. I think all war crimes should be investigated. I would not be surprised if Abu Ghraib type things also happened elsewhere. We can't just say, well that's war and not investigate acts of dishonour. We're better than that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Southeast US
8,609 posts, read 2,308,232 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam sung View Post
accepting evil, murderous behavior in that way only encourages the perpetrators (on all sides of any dispute/war) to continue with their war crimes.
wwccpd?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:34 PM
 
1,872 posts, read 649,072 times
Reputation: 952
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPibbs View Post
You've probably heard of the Brereton report that came out of Australia about war crimes committed in Afghanistan. There are accounts of wrongdoing by American troops as well. I think all war crimes should be investigated. I would not be surprised if Abu Ghraib type things also happened elsewhere. We can't just say, well that's war and not investigate acts of dishonour. We're better than that.
Yes, we are better than all the armies of the ME. The fact that we are willing to hold our forces legally accountable is testament that as a whole, we are better. But accountability is a two-way street. If you want to charge me with a 'war crime', I have a right to see the investigation conducted morally and legally acceptable to OUR standards, not theirs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:38 PM
 
6,844 posts, read 3,959,283 times
Reputation: 15859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sung View Post
Accepting evil, murderous behavior in that way only encourages the perpetrators (on ALL sides of any dispute/war) to continue with their war crimes.
How many civilians were killed by US carpet bombing in Germany, Japan, and Vietnam? More than a million. War always was and is wholesale murder. And irrational as well. The US just spent 20 years and several trillion dollars to avenge 3,000 civilians killed on 9/11. This was the cost in lives just in Afghanistan according to the Associated Press:

American service members killed in Afghanistan through April: 2,448.
U.S. contractors: 3,846.
Afghan national military and police: 66,000.
Other allied service members, including from other NATO member states: 1,144.
Afghan civilians: 47,245.
Taliban and other opposition fighters: 51,191.
Aid workers: 444.
Journalists: 72.

Last edited by bobspez; 09-18-2021 at 03:51 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2021, 03:53 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,078 posts, read 10,744,030 times
Reputation: 31470
Where has our OP been for the last few decades? Yeah, it is sad and regretible. But this stuff happens in a chaotic evacuation frenzy or a fire fight or an invasion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:05 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top