Conservatisms Last Days (unemployment rate, Whitehouse, examples, versus)

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by caution

I just worry how much more rot and ruin the baby boombers can leave us with before they no longer hold any clout.

By the time they check out, the next large wave will be in their prime, and we'll see just how much they love to pay taxes.

Socially liberal, maybe, but tax and spend fiscal liberal? Nope.

What's a tax and spend liberal? The only fiscally irresponsible people have been the last three Republican presidents.

http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP.gif (broken link)

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Bagz

or one could commit fraud on a clergy form - neither of which would be legal. If I can't legally opt out, that meets the conditions for "impossible." Especially in the context of this debate. In fact, if the best evidence you can come up with is a form (that may be rejected) and not a law or ruling, I would say that GreatDay has clearly lost this argument.

First off, I am an ordained Minister. Second, my "opt out" has been approved by both the Internal Revenue Service and the Social Security Administration. I have been audited several times, and the opt out has been accepted at those times also.

And the form I provided, amended / revised in 11/07, is the "best" because it is the form used to apply for such treatment.

Sorry if you cannot accept that it is possible to Opt Out, but, that is YOUR problem and not mine.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by harborlady

That's what I was getting at- applicable to any party origin who would abuse faith itself for personal gain.

You mean like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton et al???

[Bagz]

Originally Posted by Greatday

First off, I am an ordained Minister. Second, my "opt out" has been approved by both the Internal Revenue Service and the Social Security Administration. I have been audited several times, and the opt out has been accepted at those times also.

And the form I provided, amended / revised in 11/07, is the "best" because it is the form used to apply for such treatment.

Sorry if you cannot accept that it is possible to Opt Out, but, that is YOUR problem and not mine.

I could go to school and become ordained and that would help me get away with it, but it would still be fraud. You have to sign and believe these conditions.... also note the caution at the bottom

FROM YOUR LINK[SIZE=1]
[LEFT]7 [/SIZE][SIZE=1]I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform
as a minister, member of a religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that
makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services
for, medical care. (Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act.)
I certify that as a duly ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church or a member of a religious order not under a vow of
poverty, I have informed the ordaining, commissioning, or licensing body of my church or order that I am conscientiously opposed to, or
because of religious principles, I am opposed to the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister or as a member of a religious order) of
any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost
of, or provides services for, medical care, including the benefits of any insurance system established by the Social Security Act.
I certify that I have never filed Form 2031 to revoke a previous exemption from social security coverage on earnings as a minister, member
of a religious order not under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner.
I request to be exempted from paying self-employment tax on my earnings from services as a minister, member of a religious order not
under a vow of poverty, or a Christian Science practitioner, under section 1402(e) of the Internal Revenue Code. I understand that the
exemption, if granted, will apply only to these earnings. Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this application and to the
best of my knowledge and belief, it is true and correct.[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][SIZE=1][LEFT]Signature [/SIZE][SIZE=1]© [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Date [/SIZE][SIZE=1]©[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][SIZE=1][LEFT]Caution: [/SIZE][SIZE=1]Form 4361 is [/SIZE][SIZE=1]not proof [/SIZE][SIZE=1]of the right to an exemption from federal income tax withholding or social security tax, the right to a parsonage
allowance exclusion (section 107 of the Internal Revenue Code), assignment by your religious superiors to a particular job, or the exemption or
church status of the ordaining, licensing, or commissioning body, or religious order.

So you have to be opposed for religious reasons not political reasons or personal gain. I would say from the demeanor of the following post that you have committed fraud. Congratulations on getting away with it, but you still not shown a legal way to opt out.[/LEFT]
[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Yep! You got that right!

And, you can call me "Reverend" Greatday from here on out! LOLOL

Been that way for over 3 decades - and there are MILLIONS of others, who have not paid into SS either -

Yep! Now, go forward and never Sin again My Child!

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Bagz

I could go to school and become ordained and that would help me get away with it, but it would still be fraud. You have to sign and believe these conditions.... also note the caution at the bottom

Yep - signed it 3 decades ago.

And, I am morally opposed to Social Security.

AND, IRS and SSA are satisfied with my positions and declarations. And, as mentioned, have been for 3 Decades

Look at the bright side: No taxpayer has to pay my Social Security or Medicare.

Peace my child

OBTW - I also do marriages in Nevada

[Bagz]

BTW it only exempts you from earnings for services as a minister. Are you saying that all of your earnings are from such service or is that just how you report all of your earnings. The point is you still are not exempt from the remainder of your earnings. Becoming a minister is not the same as opting out. It is impossible to opt out.

[ViewFromThePeak]

Originally Posted by Bagz

I could go to school and become ordained and that would help me get away with it, but it would still be fraud. You have to sign and believe these conditions.... also note the caution at the bottom

So you have to be opposed for religious reasons not political reasons or personal gain. I would say from the demeanor of the following post that you have committed fraud. Congratulations on getting away with it, but you still not shown a legal way to opt out.[/LEFT]
[/i][/SIZE][/font]

There are many clever ways to avoid the nastiness of the Patriot Act, the IRS, etc but they carry a wide spectrum of risk.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Bagz

BTW it only exempts you from earnings for services as a minister. Are you saying that all of your earnings are from such service or is that just how you report all of your earnings. The point is you still are not exempt from the remainder of your earnings. Becoming a minister is not the same as opting out. It is impossible to opt out.

That is correct: All my "earnings" are as a minister

And, it is "opting out" (I think the form even uses those words )

Accept it Sparky.

[ViewFromThePeak]

Originally Posted by Bagz

BTW it only exempts you from earnings for services as a minister. Are you saying that all of your earnings are from such service or is that just how you report all of your earnings. The point is you still are not exempt from the remainder of your earnings. Becoming a minister is not the same as opting out. It is impossible to opt out.

Channeling non-minister wage or self-employed income is definitely fraud. No two ways about it.

Meh. This is no different than mafia related activities running front businesses etc. At least the mob is smarter and doesn't even go through the hassle of filling out an IRS form or signing a 1040.

It's also no different than what Sharpton and Jackson do.

[Bagz]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Yep - signed it 3 decades ago.

And, I am morally opposed to Social Security.

AND, IRS and SSA are satisfied with my positions and declarations. And, as mentioned, have been for 3 Decades

Look at the bright side: No taxpayer has to pay my Social Security or Medicare.

Peace my child

OBTW - I also do marriages in Nevada

I am also morally opposed to social security, (it is a ponsi scheme) and would opt out in a second if I could. But I do not conscientiously or religiously object to any form of government payments for health or retirement.( And I have serious doubts that you do) It is possible (though not probable) that they could adapt a system that I am not morally opposed to - even if I still disliked it.

I am actually glad that millions have figured out a way to cheat and get away with it. It is a law I don't agree with, but it is still the law, and I am still looking for a legal way to opt out - for ALL of my earnings.

And, it is "opting out" (I think the form even uses those words )

We are not talking about opting out as a minister, so it can be on the form. In the context of this thread we meant ANYONE. It is impossible for ANYONE to opt out. I even stated that a relative of mine opted out because she has a government retirement... so sure there are a few people in certain fields that can opt out.

So now that you have shown how other people can opt out, show me how I can opt out.