Give me one good reason we should defend Ukraine (employment, cocaine, Canada)

[itsjustmeagain]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

Nordstream 2 will have to be scrapped if Russia invades Ukraine.

Since when get Brits to decide where Germany gets their energy from?

Get the Germans and the French to decide that all Bank Accounts of Russian Oligarchs in UK Banks are frozen?

[hooligan]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

Nordstream 2 will have to be scrapped if Russia invades Ukraine.

In terms of gas, the UK isn't bothered, we have our own North Sea Gas as well as a pipeline to Norway, some LNG Gas from Qatar and don't rely on any Russian energy.

Gas is also a fossil fuel and all gas boilers and appliances are being phased out in the UK as part of green energy plans.

Coal has now been virtually phased out, and oil is also being replaced.

There are no NATO bases in Ukraine, however invade Ukraine and you will see NATO bases on Russian borders, as well as an end to all trade and links to the west including transport, diplomatic and cultural links.

Putin can then talk about how Russia and it's people can survive further hardship whilst sitting in one of his many houses or on his yacht.

The Russian people have been robbed once again, this time by Oligarchs who took the industry and fuel that belonged to the people for next to nothing and made themselves fantastically rich in doing so. You just have to feel sorry for the ordinary Russian people.

[Wapasha]

Originally Posted by corpgypsy

Make no mistake this issue is all the doing of Vladimir Putin and The Kremlin. Russia continues to turn away from agreements that have kept the peace across the European continent for decades. And it continues to fixate on and threaten NATO--- a defensive, voluntary alliance that protects nearly a billion people across Europe and North America--- and threaten the governing principles of international peace and security that all the countries have a stake in defending.

Those doctrines & principles, that were established after 2 world wars and a long cold war, state one country does not have the right to change the borders of another by force. One country is not permitted to dictate to another the policies it wants or the choices it makes, including with whom to associate or join. And one country cannot make efforts and take actions to dominate and crush its neighbor nations.

World leaders agree "To allow Russia to violate those principles with impunity would drag us all back to a much more dangerous and unstable time, when the continent and Berlin were divided in two, separated by no man’s lands, patrolled by soldiers, with the threat of all-out war hanging over everyone’s heads. It would also send a message to others around the world that these principles are expendable, and that, too, would have catastrophic results."

The United States and our allies and partners in Europe are focused on what’s happening in Ukraine because it's bigger than a conflict between two countries. It’s bigger than Russia and NATO. It’s a crisis with global consequences, and it requires global attention and action.

In good faith the USA and our NATO allies have diplomatically been trying to address the continued and escalating "claims" Russia makes. Putin has not engaged, because the claims he makes about weapons and bases are not genuine and the issue is not about what he says they are. What this is about is the sovereignty and self-determination of Ukraine and all nations. It’s about Russia’s rejection of a post-Cold War Europe that is whole, free, and at peace.

I just wish we had a president who was actually doing all he could to to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine. Instead he is giving them the green light for a "minor incursion," and telling Russia how split and indecisive NATO is on an invasion. The mere sight of Biden is an encouragement to invade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZJXP5hrCdE

[jwest09]

Originally Posted by Grlzrl

Just one.

To protect the Biden family Ukrainian financial investments and cash flow.

[woxyroxme]

I wish we had a president that cares as much about our southern border as he does the Ukrainian border.

[USMC1984]

Originally Posted by jwest09

To protect the Biden family Ukrainian financial investments and cash flow.

Most possible.




Also possible:


Simply a wag the dog move.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

Number 1 - the project will be scrapped if Russia invades Ukraine, whilst total sanctions will be applied, meaning Russia might as well not exist in terms of trading, cultural, transport and numerous other links.

Ukraine crisis: Nord Stream 2 pipeline could be axed, US warns - BBC News

OK, so judging by what you are saying, NS is going to be scrapped by the US.

But Biden already acknowledged that the reason he let the project to be accomplished was because he didn't want to hurt European interests, while his constituents were demanding to "re-establish ties with European allies, broken by Trump."
And by the "European allies" I assume they meant the "liberal" part of Europe, that promotes the LGBT rights and the rest; someone like the German "Green party" first of all.

There was a hope of course, that them, coming to power, would consolidate the anti-Russian front, but that's not exactly what happened.

German government is dubbed lately as the "street light" for the different colors/directions that the parties comprising the leading coalition are looking at.

And while the "Greens" ( dreaming about some "renewable energy") would want to be "tough on Putin," German business wants things as usual - the reliable gas supply from Russia at reasonable price and working relations with Russia, that benefit Germany ( and other European countries actually.)

And that what makes the new chancellor Olaf Scholz to jump between two chairs.

So no, I don't see how that NS 2 can be easily "scrapped."

Number 2 - there is nothing stopping countries from doing deals with Ukraine, it is an independent country and not Russian property.

Of course not.

But there is nothing preventing Russia to act in her own interests in response, since "other countries doing deals with Ukraine" are directed at jeopardizing HER interests - her security first of all.

So yes, anyone can act recklessly and pretend to be innocent, but the consequences of such behavior are still on them.

Number 3 - Russia has 150,000 troops on the border and is poised to invade by all accounts, and this is nothing to do with the West and more to do with the Putin and his regime.

It has anything and everything to do with the West that didn't enforce the Minsk agreement, and thus placed the Ukrainian troops against the LDNR border.

Amassing of the Russian troops in the area is only a response to it.

I am sure the Germans will survive without Nordstream 2 and like everyone else they should be making plans to replace fossil fuels in the near future.

Germany is an industrial power ( unlike the UK) and I believe it's up to them to decide, how much they can depend on the "renewable energy."

Particularly when the winds stop blowing from the Baltic Sea, as it happened last summer.

There are no NATO or British bases in Ukraine

I pointed to you that Ukraine's Defense minister admitted that they are built in Ukraine as we speak.

and Ukraine is not a NATO or EU member,

And that's what Lavrov pointed at - that Ukraine is USED by the West military complex, even without admitting it into NATO, which is unacceptable for Russia either way.

if we had bases in Ukraine then we would be in a war situation with Russia right now.

UK is in the PROCESS of establishing its military complex in Ukraine, and believe me, it's becoming more and more about Great Britain on Russian news lately, and not just the US.

If the west wanted to, we could have accepted Ukraine in to NATO and the EU but we didn't.

Now let's ponder on the reasons why.

If we had then you would now be looking at a war with NATO under Article 5 rather than just total sanctions should Russia invade.

Russia is not afraid of sanctions - I think this much became clear.
So what's left there, BNW?

I think Russia is the one doing the bullying and scaring with all those troops on the border.

Donetsk is part of Ukraine, and if the situation were to get out of hand, it would be reasonable to request a UN forces rather than send in Russian forces, whilst everyone knows Russian forces have been interfering in the region in order to create a pretext for Russian forces to enter Ukraine.

USED to be BNW, used to be.

Until the new puppet government installed in Kiev started shelling it and killing its children.

Why would the inhabitants of that area, who saw their democratically-elected president being deposed trust some "UN forces?"

The weapons supplied to Ukraine have been openly provided by Western national governments and delivered by military planes, such as RAF C-17's and this weapons have nothing to do with private funds or Russian Oligarchs, who don't have the same kind of political power as they do in Russia.

Have no idea what you are talking about exactly, but all I know that by now two Russian MPs from "United Russia" party ( that were frequenting LDNR lately) officially asked Putin for supply of weaponry there.

There has also been a crack down in the UK in relation to unexplained wealth orders and Putin's friends, even Roman Abramovich no longer has a UK visa after the international recriminations following the Salisbury poisoning incident and further changes making it harder for powerful Russians to obtain visas. I think Abramovich was spending time in Israel and has now successfully applied for a Portuguese passport, due to a naturalisation scheme for descendants of Sephardic Jews.

Too little, too late.

By now those money were safely moved to varies offshore accounts.

As for other Putin cronies they are also under increased pressure from authorities and the invasion of Ukraine may make life outside Russia a lot harder for thee individuals.

As I've said - too little, too late.

The damage is done.

Putin thinks he can just disregard the rest of the world and kill his enemies with impunity, well I think the rest of the world is finally becoming sick and tired, and this time ALL links with Russia may be severed, and Russia can then finally be isolated from the civilised world.

See, it's really not about Putin and Co already.

At his point he is already FORCED to do what's essential to the security of the Russian state, in order to protect his life/riches and the riches/power of his class.

But this STILL puts the West ( and this includes UK, BNW,) on the wrong side of history, as far as this whole "Ukraine affair" goes.

Don't blame the messenger for the delivered bad news as they say, BNW.

[RoyaleWithCheese]

The US cant possibly win this situation militarily. However, it is the US that is instigating a conflict. I wonder what the real plan is. The US never does anything based on it being the right thing. The US is the most evil actor on the global stage. So we need to consider who in the US government or those who bribe the US government benefits most from this situation and how it will most likely play out. I assume it cant play out with the US directly getting involved in a conflict since Russia will wipe the floor with the US (then we would have to look at what would happen next which way more big money interests would be harmed than helped).

[509]

Originally Posted by Brave New World

Bloodshed if Russia invades Ukraine would be 'comparable to Chechnya or Bosnia' wars - ITV News

Nope.

Chechnya and Bosnia were RELIGIOUS wars with Moslems and Russia.

Ukraine and Russia are both Orthodox Christian nations. They are also both run by corrupt oligarchs. There is a LOT of inter-marriage between Russians and Ukrainians.

When I traveled in the Soviet Union and Russia NOBODY blinked an eye, or even asked the question whether one was Ukrainian or Russian. In fact, I was curious and asked the question of people I met. Never heard a disparaging comment by either side.

Ukrainian and Russian people are NOT going to fight each other in a war.

The soldiers might, but as soon as soon as it becomes apparent who the victor is the fighting will cease quickly.

The people of both countries have little loyalty to the oligarchs that run the respective countries. They are NOT going to die so some RICH person can maintain power.

After all those years of Communism and now the oligarchs......the Who said it best. "won't get fooled again.

But both countries live under Totalitarian regimes.

[Jstarling]

When Ukraine became independent in 1991, they voluntarily destroyed their many Soviet-era nuclear weapons with the understanding that the west would come to their aid if They needed defense against Russia.