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I would think it obvious that having the attitude that women are the root of all evil, feminisms is to blame for the entire worlds problems, having the entitlement of getting any woman of YOUR choosing, and salivating the hopes that those attractive women will become fat and ugly living alone with 100 cats for the remainder of their life will never gain you intimacy.
As I have stated every male I know (female too) has been able to find intimacy regardless of his bank account or physical appearance because they dont harbor these unhealthy attitudes and behaviors attributed to incels. The relationships may not last forever but that is just the nature of the beast for all of us.
I agree.
Most people, as I have said repeatedly, are honest with themselves about their own S/RMV. I'd say the VAST majority. But social media culture tends to grossly magnify a small population into some faux national crisis. It isn't.
The incel male is a small population, but social media wants you think it is some gazillion man army. It isn't. Your experience is the rule, and these incel males and post-wall women on social media are the exception...they just have more free time and bigger social media megaphones than you, so your rule goes unheard while their exception becomes "the story."
Everyone in my family on both sides is happily married, has kids, etc. Most of our friends are as well, and acquaintances, etc. But we all live in the real world, not that imaginary land of social media that people think is the real world. It's like the "twitter mob" that people think number in the 10s of millions, when it is like a couple dozen griefers who post twitter vomit constantly.
That said, I still maintain that if anyone thinks there is a masculinity crisis, look no further than the last two generations of men being raised by women, spending their formative years surrounded by almost nothing but women, and a post 1960s feminism demand that men become more feminine. If you are looking for circa WW2 rugged Marlboro Man types...good luck. They are almost extinct.
Most people, as I have said repeatedly, are honest with themselves about their own S/RMV. I'd say the VAST majority. But social media culture tends to grossly magnify a small population into some faux national crisis. It isn't.
The incel male is a small population, but social media wants you think it is some gazillion man army. It isn't. Your experience is the rule, and these incel males and post-wall women on social media are the exception...they just have more free time and bigger social media megaphones than you, so your rule goes unheard while their exception becomes "the story."
Everyone in my family on both sides is happily married, has kids, etc. Most of our friends are as well, and acquaintances, etc. But we all live in the real world, not that imaginary land of social media that people think is the real world. It's like the "twitter mob" that people think number in the 10s of millions, when it is like a couple dozen griefers who post twitter vomit constantly.
That said, I still maintain that if anyone thinks there is a masculinity crisis, look no further than the last two generations of men being raised by women, spending their formative years surrounded by almost nothing but women, and a post 1960s feminism demand that men become more feminine. If you are looking for circa WW2 rugged Marlboro Man types...good luck. They are almost extinct.
Is it possible that America (and others) could be moving in the direction of Japan? I’ve heard/read something like 40-50% of males there aren’t actively seeking romantic relationships with women.
Most people, as I have said repeatedly, are honest with themselves about their own S/RMV. I'd say the VAST majority. But social media culture tends to grossly magnify a small population into some faux national crisis. It isn't.
The incel male is a small population, but social media wants you think it is some gazillion man army. It isn't. Your experience is the rule, and these incel males and post-wall women on social media are the exception...they just have more free time and bigger social media megaphones than you, so your rule goes unheard while their exception becomes "the story."
Everyone in my family on both sides is happily married, has kids, etc. Most of our friends are as well, and acquaintances, etc. But we all live in the real world, not that imaginary land of social media that people think is the real world. It's like the "twitter mob" that people think number in the 10s of millions, when it is like a couple dozen griefers who post twitter vomit constantly.
That said, I still maintain that if anyone thinks there is a masculinity crisis, look no further than the last two generations of men being raised by women, spending their formative years surrounded by almost nothing but women, and a post 1960s feminism demand that men become more feminine. If you are looking for circa WW2 rugged Marlboro Man types...good luck. They are almost extinct.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm living in some fantasy enclave the way some go on about this and that crisis. In my world the majority of people still date, fall in love, have relationships, eventually marry and raise families. Men are still men and women are still women. Of course there are others who dont fit the "norm" but that has always been true.
Just throwing this out there but girls are also being raised by women as there are just more and more single parent homes where mothers are doing most all of the parenting. There are also more girls/women who diverge from the idea of femininity and are much more masculine than a few decades ago in appearance and behavior.
If feminism is demanding males become more feminine, is it also demanding females become more masculine? I consider myself a feminist. I raised two men and half raised two grandsons. They are far from being feminine and my sons would compare more to the rugged Marlboro man. I certainly never demanded femininity from them nor does any other mother I know demand of her sons. I realize just the absence of a father or father figure has an effect but for myself and other mothers we try to fill that void by stepping up and engaging our sons in manly things such as scouts and sports, hunting, racing, etc. as well do our best to find male mentors.
There probably is no such thing as in involuntary celibate other than a fringe that could only have an assignation with a mannequin. Reminds me of the kinds of feminists defined as not having a relationship that they demand, feminism defined as every middle aged woman lost in space deserves the undivided attention of George Clooney. A man that does not get the harem he always wanted could also be an "incel."
True it does not help that obesity tends to destroy the market quality for men , and we have women not understanding that this puts them under a threshold of men preferring the single life . If all women were obese or lack any trace of femininity, I would be singe to this day, However that is still a choice.
Society is not going to change much. So the only thing anyone can do is improve themselves to attract something they like. Unfortunately a lot of men and women don't even seem to know what that is. Women trying to sell their careers and men just pumping iron in the gym is not really hitting the mark. However if I did not find a suitable mate I was perfectly at peace with remaining single. That is why I did for many years.
I lived a charmed life I suppose. I was happy single and I am happily married. Looks like others are not happy being single and not happy with their choices. Sounds tough.....
And no I dont think it is odd. One, the statistics for "are you having sex, etc." are self declared. Those kinds of surveys are always flawed.
1) Do you actually doubt the statistics? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? You know, there are multiple studies that say the same thing, and none that say the opposite.
2) But let's assume they are true, I want you to make a prediction. Do you think that the number will continue to go up, stay the same, or go down? Why?
3) If you think it will go up, is that a good thing? Bad thing? Doesn't matter? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian
In both cases, neither wants to take an honest look at their S/RMV and who exactly their relationship peer group is in reality.
The problem that everyone in this thread can't see, is that if you do away with marriage and create a hookup culture, you in-effect create a kind of polygamy(Pareto principle).
If 20% of the men get 80% of the women. The best you can hope to do is put yourself into that top 20%.
The same problem exists in capitalism. People who say you could be Jeff Bezos if you only work hard enough. Not only is that not true, but not everyone can be Jeff Bezos. Someone has to be on the bottom. Someone has to clean the toilets.
Even if I push myself into the 20%, I push someone else out. I save myself by killing someone else.
What I'm trying to explain here, is that allowing the pareto principle into sexual relationships is not only bad for men, it is also bad for women. It not only creates incels, it also creates single mothers and frustrated cat ladies.
The "looks only" dating world of 2022 exposes the concept of the Sexual/Relationship Market Value for both men and women, and on both sides, there are populations who are not real pleased about their realities.
On the male side, the incels are the most famous or well known of those males not real pleased about the dynamics of the marketplace, but they are functionally NO different than single women who are past "the wall" and not real pleased about their own S/RMV reality.
Incel males tend to be 18-35 and bummed out that women in their age group aren't into them because they do not yet present the S/RMV those women want. RedShadowz is correct in that it isn't sex, but relationships/intimacy they want, same as post-wall single women. They can have sex pretty easily, but they want more, and the people they want more from aren't choosing them...and that is what bums them out.
This isn't all men and/or all women. It is the ones who are doing the griping. You have young men who for whatever reason have decided they "deserve" a relationship with whatever woman they find appealing. SAME thing happens to women past the wall. They "deserve" a relationship with whatever guy they find appealing. In both cases, neither wants to take an honest look at their S/RMV and who exactly their relationship peer group is in reality.
Most folks are honest with themselves. These incel males and "there are no good men" griping women are not honest with themselves, and they have social media accounts, and they gripe...a lot.
I think a lot of this is due to the prevalence of people looking for dates/relationships online rather than in real life. Online, the only thing you can really be sure of(assuming a current pic) is what someone looks like.
Not all that long ago, most people met dates and potential partners in their social circles. Either they met at school, college, work, church, through friends or families and other social events in their communities. So, by the time you dated someone you likely already them and knew something about their character and personality. Or, you had friends, acquaintances or family who knew them.
When you get to know someone, they can grow on you even if initially there may not have been a spark based on physical attraction. A charming, funny, witty, smart personality and someone who makes you feel good and treats you well can make an Adonis like physique a far less important requirement in a partner.
If all you do is sit in the basement playing video games and looking at porn, you aren't going to come across those opportunities very often.
Is it possible that America (and others) could be moving in the direction of Japan? I’ve heard/read something like 40-50% of males there aren’t actively seeking romantic relationships with women.
Yep. The Sōshoku danshi thing. They aren't hateful, mean etc...they just don't really care. It's more about apathy than hate/discontent.
But our grasseater population is much smaller as a percentage, and gets outsized attention from social media.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm living in some fantasy enclave the way some go on about this and that crisis. In my world the majority of people still date, fall in love, have relationships, eventually marry and raise families. Men are still men and women are still women. Of course there are others who dont fit the "norm" but that has always been true.
You are living in a bubble. You keep insisting upon a definition of feminism in your particular sect. I think women should be able to vote and own property. I am therefore a feminist. Not sure why you do not understand the difference between suffragette and a 3rd wave , inter-sectional feminist, or at the very least see that they identify as such. Don't you understand how ideologies work? Christianity has not been well defined for 2000 years. so in order to do so one must mention their sect .
Quote:
Just throwing this out there but girls are also being raised by women as there are just more and more single parent homes where mothers are doing most all of the parenting. There are also more girls/women who diverge from the idea of femininity and are much more masculine than a few decades ago in appearance and behavior.
That is what i see as well. I suspect that that is not considered desirable by men on the whole. Women who cannot keep a man will tend to raise women that cannot keep a man.
Quote:
If feminism is demanding males become more feminine, is it also demanding females become more masculine? I consider myself a feminist. I raised two men and half raised two grandsons. They are far from being feminine and my sons would compare more to the rugged Marlboro man. I certainly never demanded femininity from them nor does any other mother I know demand of her sons. I realize just the absence of a father or father figure has an effect but for myself and other mothers we try to fill that void by stepping up and engaging our sons in manly things such as scouts and sports, hunting, racing, etc. as well do our best to find male mentors.
it may not be you , but from my view men are presenting as more feminine, or as malfunctional masculinity, neither of which seems beneficial . Why would that be surprising? Even if I take what you say at face value, few women are doing as you do. There is also just no way around it either way that one parent is never going to accomplish what two parents can.
Everyone in my family on both sides is happily married, has kids, etc. Most of our friends are as well, and acquaintances, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Sometimes I wonder if I'm living in some fantasy enclave the way some go on about this and that crisis.
Have you two ever read Charles Murray, "Coming Apart"? Here is a statistic from the video below...
"If you had a high school educated, blue collar person in 1963 who was ages 30-49, the odds were 84% he was married, and same for the women. It was a little higher among college-educated, at 94%, but it was the norm across society. In 2010 you are down to 84% for the upper middle-class. And down to 48% for the white working class."
And that was for 2010, it would be interesting to see what the statistics are at now.
It seems like most of the people on this forum are older and wealthier than the average American. Which is probably why things seem better than they really are.
1) Do you actually doubt the statistics? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? You know, there are multiple studies that say the same thing, and none that say the opposite.
2) But let's assume they are true, I want you to make a prediction. Do you think that the number will continue to go up, stay the same, or go down? Why?
3) If you think it will go up, is that a good thing? Bad thing? Doesn't matter? Why?
The problem that everyone in this thread can't see, is that if you do away with marriage and create a hookup culture, you in-effect create a kind of polygamy(Pareto principle).
If 20% of the men get 80% of the women. The best you can hope to do is put yourself into that top 20%.
The same problem exists in capitalism. People who say you could be Jeff Bezos if you only work hard enough. Not only is that not true, but not everyone can be Jeff Bezos. Someone has to be on the bottom. Someone has to clean the toilets.
Even if I push myself into the 20%, I push someone else out. I save myself by killing someone else.
What I'm trying to explain here, is that allowing the pareto principle into sexual relationships is not only bad for men, it is also bad for women. It not only creates incels, it also creates single mothers and frustrated cat ladies.
Of course I doubt statistics especially those based on self surveys and those trying to quantify emotions. Statistics can be manipulated and are only indicators. I do not put a lot of stock in them.
I would predict the number of people (both male and female and all in-between) will continue to see a decrease in sexual and intimate relationships for the reason I stated previously. I dont think it matters in the big picture. Those with high libidos and who want sex will have sex, those who dont wont. Same with intimate relationships.
People are still having relationships and getting married and having families. They are trending on doing so later in life. Hooking up is nothing that new. It was once called sewing your wild oats.
There have always been the outliners. Relationships and marriage are not for everyone. Lack of dating pool does not create incels, incles create a lack of dating pool for themselves, nor does it create single mothers.
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