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I've been thinking about this all day, in terms of manhood. One major issue is the inability to define what being a man really means. It's one major reason I think we don't have a lack of masculinity. I think we fail to define what it is.
But that's a challenge for every generation and even every culture.
As an example - it's not that long ago that a man - a gentleman, anyway - would be expected to fight a duel over even minor insults, or be considered simply not a man. Completely serious people, pillars of the community, went out to shoot at each other. Outside certain (mostly criminal) environments, we've abandoned this as silly, and rightly so. And that's just within our own culture.
I'm partial to Saint-Exupery's words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind, Sand and Stars
To be a man is, precisely, to be responsible. It is to feel shame at the sight of what seems to be unmerited misery. It is to take pride in a victory won by one's comrades. It is to feel, when setting one's stone, that one is contributing to the building of the world.
So do men need women?
Why do women need men for income today.
So you dont need women, as women dont need men.
You say boys fail (not sure how they are failing) due to helicopter parenting then you say women should not work but be home 24/7 with their children.
I'm not sure why you think parents dont interact with their children nor am I sure what the difference in leaving your child in daycare or nannies before the age of 5 and having someone else with them 8 hours a day once they start school.
I have no idea where you get this from me. I'm not going to dumb it down for you to comprehend, you've read between the lines to suit your own beliefs which makes me believe you're trolling for an argument, which ain't gonna happen.
By the authority invested in me by the power of the internet I hearby forbid you from reading anything I write.
To the ignore list you go. You might do me the same. Have a nice life.
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About the OP, the incel bit.
History shows that when the mainstream is hostile toward people based on non-character traits, there will eventually be a backlash against mainstream cultural values giving rise to those attitudes, if not mainstreamers themselves. You saw it during all the various rights movements throughout history. You see it with the current #MeToo movement fighting trivializaiton of sexual harassment and worse. You see it with the 21st century's calling out of school bullying. The Incel phenomenon is simply another such backlash.
Think about what Incel means: Involuntary Celibate. It became a thing precisely because a lot of people treated sexually unsuccessful men with condescension at best, open belittlement at midling, and contempt at worst. Not because they deliberately set out to non-defensively demean or otherwise do bad to others but simply because it was an irritating, annoying, or otherwise 'uncool' trait to have. If people didn't have contempt for involuntarily celebates, then the Incels, as a movement, would simply not have become as prominent as it is in our real world (certainly not its toxic subset).
Even adults will react to one's lack of sexual success with a certain disdain. In effect, they start with the assumption that, short of being the most heinous violent felon, a person's worth (especially a male's) stands or falls on their sexual success.
This is a seriously hasty judgement. How does lack of sexual success make a male a low-value person through and through? So far as I know, sexual success or lack thereof has no impact on a person's ability to - first and foremost - refrain from hurting, harming, or degrading others outside the scope of reasonable and proportionate defense, retaliation, or punishment. If one is not doing that, then it's difficult so see how it's sensible to look down on that person.
Nor can I see how involuntary celibacy negatively impacts on their basic ability to perform well in the fields vital to any modern society worthy of the name: medicine, pure and applied science and engineering, business fields, engine and equipment repair, or construction work; nor in creating cultural products like books, film, music, that add enjoyment to other people's lives. Even so, this is only of secondary importance to the previous paragraph. This is all the career and financial success in the world does not mean the person will add more disvalue to others lives than they subtract from it. Cosby, Epstein, and Weinstein (to name just three) are proof positive of this. So much so that not even all their financial success and accomplishments can compensate for their horrific acts. As the principal at my boarding school attended for a year said "Merits don't offset demerits".
Some will claim that low sexual success is the result and not the cause of one's low worth in the eyes of others doesn't answer the question but sidesteps it. For we can now ask "What is a low-valued person?" and "Are you (or society) really using the correct criteria for sizing up a person's worth?". The answer is in the previous two paragraphs. All this means that even if society deems, and the key word here is deems, the person low-valued and therefore not able to gain sexual experiences, that blatantly begs the question as to whether they are using the proper criteria for sizing up a person's worth in the first place (virgin or stud).
I will be the first to admit that the Incel culture (note the capitalization) has lots of toxicity, especially certain individual Incels who think they are entitled to sex. Even so, given what I wrote above, the mainstream is not blame-free either. The only way to eliminate the Incel phenomenon for keeps is for society to drastically redefine what it means to be a disrespect-worthy person. If and until our culture does that, even the best-designed ways to peel men away from this potential destructive group will achieve only limited results.
From the reading I have done they are not choosing to not have relationships, they are unable to. Their blogs and forums are full of misogynic speech.
Their opening Principals:
Going your way is understanding the actual nature of women, seeing the truth about gender interactions and relationships.This can be jarring, unsettling. It's the very reason 99% of people around you prefer to live in a world of pretty lies than accept the ugly truth; it's the reason most of the men stayed put in Plato's Cave.
take a look at their dictionary.
For a bunch of guys merely going their own way, thriving, living and enjoying life they sure do devote a whole lot of time talking about women.
The thing is — there is no “their dictionary” as there is no official source for all things “MGTOW”. MGTOW isn’t some sort of political party like Republican and Democrat that sorta have an official platform. From just browsing a MGTOW forum — I saw plenty of men saying they could be with a woman but choose not to. Many MGTOW men have been married…some more than once. And like I said, many men are MGTOW without even knowing what MGTOW is. The abbreviation simply means what it says — men going their own way.
I mean the idea of failing only really applies if you personally think you're failing. I don't really like working, and usually only work part time jobs. Most of my hobbies aren't things that bring me around people in general, let alone women. I don't really consider myself a failure because of lack of money or not being good at relationships. I mean if I want more money, I have to decide to work more. If I want a better chance at meeting women, I gotta put myself out there more and gain more hobbies. So I don't consider myself a failure, I'm living the life I choose to live. In most instances, people can change the way they live if they feel like they're failing, it's all up to you and putting the work in. Of course some other person might consider you a failure. Oh well, there's nothing you can do about that. Another person's opinion of you means squat. I mean even some rich people who can get any person they want to date, are considered failures because they're not nice people.
I think on the relationship side of things, since this thread has really delved into that topic, both sexes have alot of entitlement. You'll get guys who think they are entitled to a gorgeous woman, when they themselves don't put any effort into how they look, their hobbiers, or have no personality. You get women who think they deserve prince charming just because they exist, while offering absolutely nothing in return besides their looks. You get overweight or ugly people of both sexes who think they're entitled to a 10/10, when to be honest it's probably not gonna happen. Not trying to be mean, but I think there is such thing as a league as far as your looks go. This doesn't mean that you'll never see an uglier looking man or woman with a good looking woman or man, but it's not exactly the norm. And in those cases the uglier one in the relationship might have other things going for them, like being really nice, outgoing, and having a great personality.
I think with dating and relationships, people really overthink things. I mean yeah it takes work, and people who struggle usually don't want to put in the work required to foster relationships whether it's a romantic one or just friendship. So I don't buy the involuntary celibacy stuff tbh. It's a matter of just keep trying if you're struggling, if you just give up, you're actually voluntarily celibate.
And with MGTOW, I think there's guys and women who fall into that, with women being WGTOW lol. I think there's definitely people who genuinly don't care about dating, relationships, and the opposite sex. They don't hold grudges against the opposite sex, they just got their own thing going on. Some people are more concerned about work, hobbies, or just like to drift through life. I don't think it's a matter of being a failure. It's a matter of figuring out what's important to you, and putting in the work or not towards that.
For me personally, I would still love to find a woman to spend the rest of my life and start a family with. That being said I wouldn't say I put a strong effort into it, and that's on me. I don't hold a grudge against the female gender because I haven't found someone. There might be someone out there for me in the way I currently am, or I might have to make changes to my life. I personally feel like I don't want to complain about women, because I don't think that's a personality trait that's going to help me with them. I was kinda like that when I was younger, and tbh it makes me cringe to think of how I use to complain.
Sorry about the long post, just thought this was an interesting discussion.
I have no idea where you get this from me. I'm not going to dumb it down for you to comprehend, you've read between the lines to suit your own beliefs which makes me believe you're trolling for an argument, which ain't gonna happen.
By the authority invested in me by the power of the internet I hearby forbid you from reading anything I write.
To the ignore list you go. You might do me the same. Have a nice life.
Translated to mean you cant explain or justify your argument. Or your embarrassed of the answer.
You brought the topic of a couple quotes from the 70s women's right movement and asked, "so, women dont need men?" followed by a condescending statement: Apparently we are only necessary for pro-creation and income.
that is where I get the question then do men need women. You inadvertently did answer by telling that you learned how to cook, do your own laundry and replace a button when it fell off my shirt and you bought your first house as a bachelor. So the answer is no, men dont need women.
So dumb it down for me why is women not needing a man bad or offensive while a man not needing a women is good. So good in fact it increased your confidence and self-worth.
Im sure you wont answer that either, you would rather insult and make yourself appear superior with narcissistic condescending references to my intelligence and comprehension. But thats what people do when they can not answer a question or defend their statements.
The thing is — there is no “their dictionary” as there is no official source for all things “MGTOW”. MGTOW isn’t some sort of political party like Republican and Democrat that sorta have an official platform. From just browsing a MGTOW forum — I saw plenty of men saying they could be with a woman but choose not to. Many MGTOW men have been married…some more than once. And like I said, many men are MGTOW without even knowing what MGTOW is. The abbreviation simply means what it says — men going their own way.
Absolutely there is "their dictionary" It is posted on their website!
It is an internet group with a mission statement or principals declaration, members, forums, blogs.
No different than the 3rd wave radical feminist groups online that men go on about.
I mean the idea of failing only really applies if you personally think you're failing. I don't really like working, and usually only work part time jobs. Most of my hobbies aren't things that bring me around people in general, let alone women. I don't really consider myself a failure because of lack of money or not being good at relationships. I mean if I want more money, I have to decide to work more. If I want a better chance at meeting women, I gotta put myself out there more and gain more hobbies. So I don't consider myself a failure, I'm living the life I choose to live. In most instances, people can change the way they live if they feel like they're failing, it's all up to you and putting the work in. Of course some other person might consider you a failure. Oh well, there's nothing you can do about that. Another person's opinion of you means squat. I mean even some rich people who can get any person they want to date, are considered failures because they're not nice people.
I think on the relationship side of things, since this thread has really delved into that topic, both sexes have alot of entitlement. You'll get guys who think they are entitled to a gorgeous woman, when they themselves don't put any effort into how they look, their hobbiers, or have no personality. You get women who think they deserve prince charming just because they exist, while offering absolutely nothing in return besides their looks. You get overweight or ugly people of both sexes who think they're entitled to a 10/10, when to be honest it's probably not gonna happen. Not trying to be mean, but I think there is such thing as a league as far as your looks go. This doesn't mean that you'll never see an uglier looking man or woman with a good looking woman or man, but it's not exactly the norm. And in those cases the uglier one in the relationship might have other things going for them, like being really nice, outgoing, and having a great personality.
I think with dating and relationships, people really overthink things. I mean yeah it takes work, and people who struggle usually don't want to put in the work required to foster relationships whether it's a romantic one or just friendship. So I don't buy the involuntary celibacy stuff tbh. It's a matter of just keep trying if you're struggling, if you just give up, you're actually voluntarily celibate.
And with MGTOW, I think there's guys and women who fall into that, with women being WGTOW lol. I think there's definitely people who genuinly don't care about dating, relationships, and the opposite sex. They don't hold grudges against the opposite sex, they just got their own thing going on. Some people are more concerned about work, hobbies, or just like to drift through life. I don't think it's a matter of being a failure. It's a matter of figuring out what's important to you, and putting in the work or not towards that.
For me personally, I would still love to find a woman to spend the rest of my life and start a family with. That being said I wouldn't say I put a strong effort into it, and that's on me. I don't hold a grudge against the female gender because I haven't found someone. There might be someone out there for me in the way I currently am, or I might have to make changes to my life. I personally feel like I don't want to complain about women, because I don't think that's a personality trait that's going to help me with them. I was kinda like that when I was younger, and tbh it makes me cringe to think of how I use to complain.
Sorry about the long post, just thought this was an interesting discussion.
I think you are right on spot. If you are living the life you are comfortable with and you are happy how can you be a failure. I'm not even sure what being a failure means. I dont think there is one set of things that determine a person a success or failure. Being married or having a mate or even casually dating surely is not a measure of success or manliness for that matter.
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